On “God exists/doesn’t exist” and offensiveness

December 17th, 2008

A few days ago, I asked, as an experiment, which of these two statements was more offensive: “there is a god” and “there is no god”. While most of the replies I got were perfectly reasonable (paraphrasing vjack, neither statement is offensive, but one of them is false), the lack of responses by either “normal” theists – especially of the typical, born-again, Protestant kind –, and “non-militant” atheists (the ones who have no belief themselves, but take special care not to offend believers) prevented this experiment from uncovering the kind of replies I wanted: the ones that say that “there is no god” is offensive, but can’t explain why; they just feel that it is. Having atheists say so would have been particularly interesting.

Which just shows that this blog is no Friendly Atheist. :)

Still, this doesn’t prevent me from answering my own question, in detail. As others said, neither statement by itself is offensive – much like “2+2=4” and “2+2=5” aren’t. One of them is right and the other is not, but a simple claim shouldn’t be offensive to anyone.

However, these statements aren’t said in a vacuum. When you say either of them, you are probably – even if unconsciously – adding something to it. How much, depends on the individual. Similarly, when you hear one of those statements – especially if it’s the one you disagree with –, you tend to add implications to it.

“There is a god”, when said to an atheist, only has no extra meanings when said by either a deist or an incredibly liberal believer (so liberal he couldn’t possibly be called a “Christian” or similar). If said by virtually every other kind of believer, it includes one or more of the following:

  • I’m right and you’re wrong
  • I’m saved and you’re not; you’re going to hell
  • You’re immoral for not believing, and for having no source of morality
  • (if in a Christian community) You’re an outsider; you’re not one of us; you’re not a real American/whatever
  • Your life is incomplete; you can’t possibly be happy
  • Jesus died for you, you ungrateful monster
  • It’s because of people like you that evil exists
  • If you don’t believe, you’re just in denial; God’s existence is obvious
  • You must allow me to convert you, otherwise you’re screwed.

(note that I said “one or more of”. I don’t mean that every theist believes all of those, or means all of those.)

Meanwhile, and to be fair, when an atheist says “there is no god”, here’s what he can mean, or at least what believers hear:

  • I’m right and you’re wrong
  • You’re stupid
  • You were conned
  • You’re brainwashed
  • You’re a sheep
  • You only have those beliefs because you’ve never thought about them
  • You’re irrational
  • Your religion is a crutch, because you can’t cope with the real world
  • You’ve wasted your life. Time, money, effort, hopes, fears: all of it was for nothing.

The last one is particularly poignant, and I love Dan Dennett’s take on it. When you think about it, that is perhaps the worst thing you can tell a person – which doesn’t mean that it’s not true –, and it’s understandable that many people find it utterly offensive, even if that wasn’t the goal. Incredibly, I think it can hurt people’s feelings even more than, for instance, saying “you’re immoral and you’re going to hell”, because a non-believer knows that those are not true, and that the believer is just speaking from ignorance. But “you’ve wasted your life” is a real, actual, present “threat” – one that must be fought at all costs. Because otherwise you feel like an utter failure, an utter waste of a life.

This explains why there were so many complaints about atheist / secular signs during the past months. Now, granted, some can actually be an attack on belief, and offensive to believers, but some the ones they complained about said something as inoffensive as “Don’t believe in God? You’re not alone”, or, as Ebonmuse put it, “Atheists exist”. And even these were seen as personal offenses, as attacks on their faith, as “liberal Christian-bashing”, and other absurdities. Perhaps, from this angle, I can understand their otherwise incomprehensible anger: the fact that atheists exist and have a voice is a constant threat on their own perceived self-worth. “If atheists exist (and can speak out, and have normal lives), then perhaps, just perhaps, I’ve wasted my life.”

Which is more “offensive”?

December 9th, 2008

Following the discussions about the FFRF’s atheist sign (see here, for instance), I just want to ask any readers of this blog the following: which of these two fictional signs (imagine them being shown to thousands, in a public place) is more “offensive”?

Sign A:

There is a God.

Sign B:

There is no God.

I’ll expand on this in the next post, naturally, but, first, I’d just like to have your answers, and, if possible, your reasoning for that answer – whether you’re an atheist or not.

PZ Myers on "atheists are fanatics"

November 19th, 2008

Oh. So if you simply think the idea that there is a Great Cosmic Voyeur who wants to control your genitals is absurd, that makes you a fanatic? I can’t be too concerned about the opinions of a deluded true believer who can’t tell a fierce bearded guy with an AK-47 from a tweedy academic with a word processor.

Source: Pharyngula

The “religious freedom” question, again…

November 12th, 2008

Seen on Salad is Slaughter: Catholic bishops will fight Obama on abortion. The best bit:

The nation’s Roman Catholic bishops vowed Tuesday to forcefully confront the Obama administration over its support for abortion rights, saying the church and religious freedom could be under attack in the new presidential administration.

Say that again? “Religious freedom”?

Yes, it’s that distortion again. Do these people even know what “freedom” means? When you’re deciding on something that affects mainly others, it’s not “freedom”, it’s power. The power over others, to dictate on what they can and cannot do.

“Religious freedom” is being able to have the religion you want – even if it’s “none”. It’s being able to act according to those beliefs, as long as it doesn’t infringe the rights of others. It’s not being persecuted (as in “jailed” or “fed to large felines”) for your beliefs. That’s it.

“Religious freedom” has nothing to do with being able to oppress others, force your beliefs on them, or dictate their actions by turning your religious commandments into the law of your country, affecting everyone – even those who don’t share your beliefs. All of those are a matter of power – of having power over other people.

If you don’t have that power – even if, historically, you are used to having it it – your “freedom” is never in question. You can still do what you want. But so can others… and that’s what you can’t accept, isn’t it?

Why these guys are insane

November 11th, 2008

The environmental movement is consumed with trying to preserve the planet forever. But we know that isn’t in God’s plan.

The earth we inhabit is not a permanent planet. It is, frankly, a disposable planet—it is going to have a very short life. It’s been around six thousand years or so—that’s all—and it may last a few thousand more. And then the Lord is going to destroy it.

I’ve told environmentalists that if they think humanity is wrecking the planet, wait until they see what Jesus does to it.

– John McArthur, Evangelicalism and the Environmental Movement

California’s Proposition 8: Freedom and Power

November 8th, 2008

Reading the comments on Hemant’s Questions for Anyone Who Voted for Proposition 8, I found, naturally (considering the blog), that most people supported equality, but there were a couple of people who thought that they were acting morally when trying to ban gay marriage. One comment included the following:

I do believe that legalizing gay marriage would directly affect religious freedoms–all in the guise of “equal rights”.

Am I a bigot for supporting what I feel to be morally right?

I do believe that passing this amendment protects religious freedom.

However, that person, though possibly unaware of the fact, has a problem with definitions. Because it’s not about (his) freedom at all, but about (his) power.

I think it was Richard Stallman who once wrote that the difference between a freedom and a power is that the former is being able to decide something which affects mostly yourself, and a power is to be able to decide something that affects mainly others. Now, when you, a religious heterosexual, can (and do) decide what others (gays) can and cannot do, which is the case? It takes an especially convulted and twisted mind — not to mention incredibly selfish and egocentric — to claim that whether gays can marry or not affects you more than it does them1. To decide that they can’t marry is not a question of your freedom, but of you having power over their freedoms.

Also, losing a power you once had does not constitute a “loss of your freedom”, because none of the latter was affected. Christians love to claim that their “religious freedom” is being attacked, but no such thing has ever happened (unless, possibly, in Muslim theocracies), because their freedoms are unaffected; what they are losing is the power they’re used to having — and which they always had, through history, unjustly, and often through physical force.

  1. e.g. “not oppressing them hurts my feelings, so whether to oppress them or not is all about me.” []

It’s a day late…

November 6th, 2008

… but I couldn’t resist:

Barack has beaten Mccain!
Wait. Barack is evolving!
Barack evolved into President!

Full version (starting with the Democratic primaries) here.

Yes, You Could

November 5th, 2008

Thank you, America. The rest of the world breathes in relief.

Instead of pointing you to his victory speech, I’ll celebrate with a previous one, which still brings a tear to my eye when I watch it. Especially the second half. You’ve probably heard it before, but…

Please vote.

November 4th, 2008

I can’t, what with not being American and all that. But most of the people reading this can.

Now, if we’re thinking about not voting because “none of the candidates really represent my positions” or “they’re both the same”, I leave you with two quotes for you to consider. Please do so.

 

Let’s say you’ve decided to sit out every election until you finally encounter the candidate who’s a left-handed green-eyed atheist libertarian who will institute the flat tax and can sing classical opera. I can guarantee you that you, my friend, will be sitting out every election of your entire life.

But let’s say a candidate finally comes along who’s a right-handed green-eyed agnostic libertarian who will institute some kinds of tax reforms (not the exact ones you want) and plays the tuba. And let’s say the other guy in the race is, hmmm, Fred Phelps. Are you really telling me that you’re going to sit out on principle because you only like southpaws?

– Kazim, The Atheist Experience

 

and, of course:

To put them in perspective, I think of being on an airplane. The flight attendant comes down the aisle with her food cart and, eventually, parks it beside my seat. “Can I interest you in the chicken?” she asks. “Or would you prefer the platter of shit with bits of broken glass in it?”

To be undecided in this election is to pause for a moment and then ask how the chicken is cooked.

– David Sedaris, The New Yorker

Barack Hussein Osama Nobama, the baby-murdering Muslim

October 22nd, 2008

In case you haven’t heard, there’s a guy running for president named Barack Hussein Osama Nobama. This Nobama was born outside America and secretly schooled in Islamic terrorism at a Wahhabi madrassa. He then moved to the United States to take up the radical ’60s teachings of the Weather Underground’s Bill Ayers, while also organizing for ACORN, a subprime-lending, voter fraud-committing collective of affirmative-action welfare queens. All this happened before he became an elitist celebrity advocate of socialism, infanticide, the sexual abuse of children and treason.

Richard Kim, The Nation

An exaggeration, right? Nobody could possibly really believe such idiocy?

Right…

Ohio Christians against baby-murdering Muslims for President

The prosecution rests. :)

Powell, Obama and racism

October 21st, 2008

Conservatives such as Rush Limbaugh, naturally, are ignoring all of Colin Powell’s stated reasons, and saying he’s endorsing Obama only because they’re both black. Which, they say, amounts to racism.

Does that mean that they are voting for McCain only because they and McCain are white? The racist bastards! :)

In fact, if we take this absurdity to its logical limit, the only non-racists out there are the whites who’re voting for Obama, and the blacks who’re voting for McCain. Everyone else is just voting according to skin color, nothing more. Racists!

And to think these creeps have millions hanging on to their every word…

The Onion’s eerily accurate 2001 prediction

October 20th, 2008

Just saw the link to it on Peter David’s blog. It’s hard to believe it was written in 2001, instead of 2008 with the advantage of hindsight.

Some gems:

"My fellow Americans," Bush said, "at long last, we have reached the end of the dark period in American history that will come to be known as the Clinton Era, eight long years characterized by unprecedented economic expansion, a sharp decrease in crime, and sustained peace overseas. The time has come to put all of that behind us."

During the 40-minute speech, Bush also promised to bring an end to the severe war drought that plagued the nation under Clinton, assuring citizens that the U.S. will engage in at least one Gulf War-level armed conflict in the next four years.

On the economic side, Bush vowed to bring back economic stagnation by implementing substantial tax cuts, which would lead to a recession, which would necessitate a tax hike, which would lead to a drop in consumer spending, which would lead to layoffs, which would deepen the recession even further.

And, naturally:

Bush had equally high praise for Attorney General nominee John Ashcroft, whom he praised as "a tireless champion in the battle to protect a woman’s right to give birth."

"Soon, with John Ashcroft’s help, we will move out of the Dark Ages and into a more enlightened time when a woman will be free to think long and hard before trying to fight her way past throngs of protesters blocking her entrance to an abortion clinic," Bush said. "We as a nation can look forward to lots and lots of babies."

Continued Bush: "John Ashcroft will be invaluable in healing the terrible wedge President Clinton drove between church and state."

Bush concluded his speech on a note of healing and redemption.

"We as a people must stand united, banding together to tear this nation in two," Bush said. "Much work lies ahead of us: The gap between the rich and the poor may be wide, be there’s much more widening left to do. We must squander our nation’s hard-won budget surplus on tax breaks for the wealthiest 15 percent. And, on the foreign front, we must find an enemy and defeat it."

The Onion: prophecies 10,000 times more accurate than any book written by Bronze Age desert nomads. :)