“If I’m wrong and God doesn’t exist, then I’ve wasted all my life promoting the oppression of gays because of a lie. That would make me feel pretty bad. Therefore, God exists.”
Archive for the ‘fanaticism’ Category
Why the most radical fundamentalists (such as those in the Westboro Baptist Church) almost never lose their faith
Wednesday, March 11th, 2009PZ Myers on "atheists are fanatics"
Wednesday, November 19th, 2008Oh. So if you simply think the idea that there is a Great Cosmic Voyeur who wants to control your genitals is absurd, that makes you a fanatic? I can’t be too concerned about the opinions of a deluded true believer who can’t tell a fierce bearded guy with an AK-47 from a tweedy academic with a word processor.
Source: Pharyngula
Monique Davis’ "apology" – double standards, anyone?
Friday, April 11th, 2008Alonzo Fyfe is completely right.
Rep. Monique Davis apologized to Rob Sherman, the atheist she told to “get out of that seat” because he “believes in destroying”, which she equates with being an atheist, who has no right to go to court in “the land of Lincoln where people believe in God”. She apologized to him, personally, for insulting him — personally. As if she had just insulted him, instead of atheists in general. As if no bigotry was involved.
Alonzo compares it with Mel Gibson’s outburst against a Jewish policeman.
Did Gibson apologize just to the cop for insulting him personally? No, nor could he have done just that. He apologized to the Jewish people in general. He wasn’t just insulting that cop, he was accusing Jews of causing wars and being responsible for a number of evils in the world. That was not just rudeness, that was bigotry.
Why should Davis’ outburst be treated differently? Why should people be satisfied with a personal apology for rudeness? She showed as much bigotry to all atheists as Mel Gibson did to all Jews. Do atheists have less rights? Have we bought into their propaganda so much that we’re willing to be reviled and demonized, and not do a damn thing about it? In which way are atheists morally inferior to Jews, or to any other group? Why should this kind of bigotry be excused, when it wouldn’t be if the target was any other?
Not to mention that Davis is not an actor, but an elected official. She has a much bigger responsibility for her actions than Gibson.
Read the comments on Alonzo’s post as well, where he gives suggestions on whom to contact in order to demand a real apology (or resignation) from Davis. As Alonzo says, and I said before, complaining to Davis is useless: the fact that the people she sees as the most obscenely evil in the world criticize her actions only confirms their “righteousness” in her mind.
"It’s dangerous for our children to even know that your philosophy exists"
Wednesday, April 9th, 2008(Note: you may want to read the prologue first.)
From Rep. Davis’ bigoted outburst about atheists, one part “jumped at me”, and I knew at the time (a few days ago) that I would have to dissect that point. That part is, of course, this post’s title.
If you follow, logically, from a correct premise, you will likely arrive at correct conclusions. However, if the premise itself is wrong, then the best logic in the world will still end up with a wrong conclusion… but it’s interesting to analyze those occurrences. This is one of them.
Rep. Davis, when she said that sentence, was being bigoted and ignorant, sure, not to mention hateful and full of “righteous anger”. However, there was something else there, something else you can hear in her voice. Fear.
And, from her original premise, she has every reason both to be afraid and to hate atheists. Because something very, very precious is at stake: the fate of eternal souls.
I’ve talked about this before, but most people — believers and otherwise — have never really thought about the concept of hell, or eternal torture. Or are simply unable to grasp it in its entirety, because humans have not evolved — nor have they ever needed to, for their survival, so it makes sense — to deal with concepts such as infinity. The worst part of “eternal torture” isn’t “torture”, but “eternal”. Even mere eternal boredom, without any active torture, is a fate inconceivably horrible, to an extent our minds aren’t capable of imagining. There is no crime on Earth, which is necessarily finite, that warrants such a fate — and this is why I believe the doctrine of hell makes the Christian god supremely evil, more sadistic than the world’s most sadistic sadist, and I wonder why more people don’t see it. Cultural indoctrination, I guess.
But, even without fully grasping the concept of eternal torture, Christians know very well — even if sometimes just instinctually — that it’s something to be avoided at all costs, something worse than anything that can happen to us on Earth.
Now, think about it. You believe that the most important thing in the world — to such an overwhelming degree that, compared to it, nothing else matters — is to avoid going to hell. Both for yourself, and for those people you care about — and, if you’re a “nice”, well-meaning person, for strangers as well. Nothing you can do or achieve or feel here on Earth is worth anything if you still end up in hell. So, to save yourself (and, later, others) form hell, anything goes. No amount of earthly suffering really means anything compared to it. No amount of ignorance, of lying, of manipulating, of causing suffering to yourself and others is significant. Taken to the logical conclusion, to condemn someone to hours, days, months, even a lifetime of suffering, is a moral act… as long as it prevents that someone from going to hell! Indeed, this was the belief of the Inquisition. Better to be tortured for days or weeks and repent, thus having a chance of being saved, than to lead a pleasant life and then be damned for all time. If you really believe that God sends people to hell, then anything that prevents that is moral… no matter the suffering it causes.
But this is not simply a matter of suffering. It’s also a matter of knowledge. Any knowledge or way of thinking that can lead one to doubt God is dangerous — indeed, more dangerous than anything in the world — and must be suppressed. Whether that knowledge is true or false is immaterial. Evolution may indeed be a fact, and it is compatible with liberal theism, but it can also lead to non-belief, and therefore its teaching must be opposed at all costs, regardless of its truth — simply because it may lead thousands, maybe millions of children to hell. And isn’t saving innocent children the most moral act one can perform?
Recall the preface in Richard Dawkins’ The God Delusion, where he wrote (emphasis mine):
I suspect – well, I am sure – that there are lots of people out there who have been brought up in some religion or other, are unhappy in it, don’t believe it, or are worried about the evils that are done in its name; people who feel vague yearnings to leave their parents’ religion and wish they could, but just don’t realize that leaving is an option. If you are one of them, this book is for you. It is intended to raise consciousness – raise consciousness to the fact that to be an atheist is a realistic aspiration, and a brave and splendid one. You can be an atheist who is happy, balanced, moral, and intellectually fulfilled.
Therefore, to a believer like Davis, the mere existence of atheists — and, not only that, but happy, moral, fulfilled atheists — is a threat, one that may cause many people to question their faith, to realize that, yes, non-belief is an option, and doesn’t make you a monster. It may cause millions of innocent souls to end up in hell. Morally, shouldn’t that be fought with tooth and nail? The mere existence of atheists is already a threat that is filling hell with souls that might not have ended there otherwise. But vocal atheists? Publicly seen atheists? Atheists that don’t act like hedonists, who don’t have “horns”, or frighten people? How many are they condemning to eternal suffering?
If one believes that God sends non-believers to hell, then it only makes sense to do anything in your power — including oppressing, lying, cheating, stealing, and murdering — to stop any possible source of non-belief. Whether that source is a person or group, or a book, or an idea, or a philosophy, or a knowledge. Whether that source is itself moral, or is itself true. None of that matters. Hell is what matters.
In fact, why stop there? Yes, the Bible says “thou shalt not murder”, so one can assume that a murderer goes to hell. But what greater sacrifice is there than one’s soul? What is giving up your life for others (say, your children), compared with up giving your soul? What could be more moral, more heroic, more noble than sacrificing your afterlife for that of your children… by killing that soul-damning atheist who is making them, for the first time in their lives, doubt what you’ve taught then since birth?
Compared to that, what is disregarding the Constitution (man’s law… pfft.) and taking away the legal rights of an atheist? I’m sure Rep. Davis considers her bigoted actions to be absolutely moral, and probably won’t even understand what all the fuss is about. After all, she was doing it to save innocent souls… in her eyes, she should get a statue, or something.
"It’s dangerous for our children to even know that your philosophy exists" – prologue
Tuesday, April 8th, 2008Readers of Planet Atheism will probably have already been flooded with posts talking about Rep. Monique Davis’ unconstitutional and hate-filled insults against Rob Sherman, who was testifying against Illinois (unconstitutionally) giving 1 million dollars to a Baptist church. Here is Eric Zorn’s original news report in the Chicago Tribune, and here’s PZ Myers’ post on RichardDawkins.net (which I link to instead of the original on Pharyngula, as this one includes contact information for people to do something about it, instead of just posting comments
).
Well, as this post’s title says, this is a prologue for the next one, about that particular quote from Davis. I wanted that one to focus on that quote itself, which is why I’m introducing the story here, in a separate post. The “real thing” comes later today.
Also, I’m not American, so there’s little I can do about it, but if you are, and care for that pesky thing called the Constitution (not to mention the civil rights issue of having non-believers demonized and insulted by politicians without consequence — imagine if Davis’ rant had been against a particular religion or skin color!), please follow the second link above for ways to make a difference. Even if you’re not an atheist, you should still care…
"The Fred Phelps of 1000 BC" :)
Tuesday, December 11th, 2007A commenter to a post called The Church of Hate at Pharyngula wrote:
Deuteronomy orders that disobedient children be taken to the city gate and stoned to death.
Sounds pretty drastic and these days that would get you a long jail sentence.
What struck me as odd, no one has ever found piles of tiny bones at the gates of ancient Jewish cities. Nor AFAIK, has anyone ever done anything like this.
My best guess. When whoever was writing Deuteronomy was frothing at the mouth and ranting and raving, the average Israeli just shrugged their shoulders, said what a nutcase, and ignored him. Maybe he was the Fred Phelps of 1000 BC.
For some reason, I loved it.
Moderates and Extremists
Tuesday, September 11th, 2007While this post hasn’t got any replies so far (mainly, I believe, because the image has already been posted by other members of Planet Atheism, so it’s probably not new to readers of this blog), its equivalent on my technology blog did draw a few ones, which inspired me to write this (right here, because it’s really not appropriate for the other blog).
Consider the three Abrahamic religions. What do they have in common?
First, they tell you how the universe / world began, using a story that was clearly the best thing that some primitive desert nomads or shepherds could come up with. Most “sophisticated” believers, these days, don’t take those stories literally, and accept evolution, an old earth, heliocentrism, a huge universe, a round earth, and so on. Only American fundies and Muslims seem to take those stories literally, no matter the opposing evidence; they probably believe their god put that evidence there as “a test of their faith”.
Then, the religions give believers some rules:
1- the first kind are rules that, while not terribly original, are, in general, a good idea. Don’t steal, don’t lie, don’t kill someone just because you feel like it, and so on.
2- then come the laws that can be annoying to follow, but it’s not the end of the world. Don’t eat that type of food, don’t wear this, wear that, do this on that day of the year, and so on. As I said, these can be annoying (for instance, what if you’re forbidden to eat your favorite food?), but most believers can live with them and obey them.
3- finally, there are the “harder” rules. Kill people who do this. Kill people who do that. Stone to death those who don’t do this. Or those who do that on a particular day of the week. Fight tooth and nail against the “enemies of God / the faith”. In fact, giving your life for that is the greatest thing you can do, and with the greatest reward.
Now, it should be obvious that a “moderate”, as usually described, is someone who follows just 1 and 2, while an “extremist” follows 3 as well.
But… how can the latter be called an “extremist”? Doesn’t the term imply that he is distorting his religion, or using it as an excuse for something unrelated, or adding something to it? To me, it does. But that’s not the case at all…
… it’s the moderates who are distorting religion, by removing things from it! Either because they don’t want to end up in prison or dead, or because their morality has evolved beyond those of the holy books’ writers, and so they recognize the immorality of those parts of their religion, but are nonetheless incapable of applying that judgment to the rest.
Are Bin Laden, or the 9/11 hijackers, or American abortion clinic bombers, “extremists”? Not at all, in my opinion — unless you call call a man who pays his taxes in full “an extremist taxpayer”. They’re simply not ignoring the unpleasant parts of their faith. They’re the only devout believers out there.
Which really paints a nice picture of their religions…
9/11 again
Tuesday, September 11th, 2007"If you honor Rushdie, we’ll honor Osama!"
Friday, June 22nd, 2007From this news article:
Meanwhile a group of hardline Pakistani Muslim clerics bestowed a religious title on Osama bin Laden as a tit-for-tat revenge for the slight. The Pakistan Ulema Council has given bin Laden the title “Saifullah”, or sword of Allah.
“If a blasphemer can be given the title ‘Sir’ by the West despite the fact he’s hurt the feelings of Muslims, then a mujahid who has been fighting for Islam against the Russians, Americans and British must be given the lofty title of Islam, Saifullah,” Tahir Ashrafi, the council’s chairman, was quoted by a foreign news agency, as saying.
Riiight. Comparing a writer and the “crime” of “blasphemy” (or “hurt feelings”) to a terrorist mass murderer responsible for the deaths of thousands1. Great going, guys. Very mature of you. Wonderful sense of perspective.
- not to mention Bush’s re-election, itself responsible for thousands more, both in Iraq and as a result of the lack of stem cell research [↩]
If you offend the kind, sensitive suicide bombers, YOU’RE the monster!
Monday, June 18th, 2007Isn’t this absolutely disgusting?
From the article:
‘If somebody has to attack by strapping bombs to his body to protect the honour of the Prophet, then it is justified,’ Pakistani Religious Affairs Minister Ijaz-ul-Haq told the national assembly.
and:
‘If someone blows himself up he will consider himself justified. How can we fight terrorism when those who commit blasphemy are rewarded by the West?’ he said.
and, of course:
Dozens of students from hardline Islamic schools in the central Pakistani city of Multan chanted ‘Death to Rushdie, death to Britain’ and set a British flag on fire, witnesses said.
EDIT: PZ Myers comments on this as well.
Kent Hovind: Muy Loco en la Cabeza
Wednesday, June 13th, 2007Kent Hovind’s “email exchange” with God. You’ve got to see it to believe it.
Excerpt:
KH: Do you have time for a few questions, today, Lord?
GOD: Son, time has no effect on me. I created it. I am always here to help you and guide you in any area of your life. Go ahead with your questions, son.
KH: These last seven months in prison have been rather difficult for me, Lord. In fact, in the last month, I’ve been in five different facilities.
GOD: I know, son. I’ve been with you the entire time (Hebrews 13:5).
KH: Thanks, Lord. I felt your presence many times. But there were other times that I was very sad and lonely.
GOD: I know, son. I saw your tears. I was there, but you were too busy acting like Jonah. You were more concerned about your own problems than the future of those men around you. You need to work on that.
KH: I’m sorry, Lord. You are right.
GOD: I am always right. Go ahead with your questions.
KH: Well God, yesterday was especially hard. I couldn’t sleep the night before because I expected them to call me at 3:30 a.m. to pack up for the bus ride up here to South Carolina.
GOD: I know, son. I was right there with you. I heard your prayers throughout that long night. We had sweet fellowship, didn’t we? Thank you for loving me and talking with me.
KH: Thanks for being there and for listening, Lord.
GOD: I’m always there and always listening, son.
KH: Lord, I asked you to let me sleep, because I knew the next day would be hard and I would need my strength. Why didn’t you let me sleep, Lord?
GOD: I did, son. You slept great from 3:00 – 4:45 a.m. Who do you think it was that made the guard forget to call you at 3:30? Didn’t you wake up refreshed at 4:45 and even comment on how hard you slept and how good you felt?
KH: Yes, Lord, now that you remind me, I did sleep real hard and woke up feeling great.
Seen on Pharyngula.
Falwell’s death, and "respect for the dead"
Tuesday, May 22nd, 2007(Warning: this post is a little more emotional than the norm here.)
Most atheist blogs, plus Christopher Hitchens on TV, have, naturally, denounced Falwell as the hateful bigot he was, instead of “a great man”, like most religious right conservatives keep parroting. The backlash from the latter has been seen, too: whether on TV against Hitchens (again), or in comments on atheist blogs, many people keep saying things like: “you might have disagreed with the man, but he’s just DIED, dammit. How can you be happy about it, you heartless monster? No matter what he did, his family and friends surely miss him. You atheists are really unfeeling, cruel monsters, speaking ill of a decent man, simply because you disagreed with him.”
It’s the old “dying turns people into saints” thing.
Let me see if I can make you at least begin to understand.
Now, I’m not saying Falwell was a child molester, but imagine — just pretend — that it was actually a well-known child molester1 who’d just died.
Would you, perchance, be saying things like:
- “yes, he did some bad things, but his death is still a loss to the world.”
- “you’ve got to consider the feelings of his family and friends first.”
- “he might have been wrong about a couple of things, but the main thing is that he was always true to his convictions, to the end.”
- “if you speak ill of him — even if you were one of his victims — you are still a heartless, hateful monster. The man’s died, dammit!”
Now… would you say such a thing about a child molester? Just because he died? Would he turn into a good, decent man, just because he is no more, he’s ceased to be, he’s expired and gone to meet his maker, he is a late child molester2, and all that?
The answer is probably no.
Now, what if, in addition to being a child molester, he had also been a reverend? Would you think differently of him?
If so, sorry to say, you’re both naïve, and a hypocrite, because you let anyone fool you, no matter his actions, just because he says “God” and “Jesus” often. Which, actually, is what many Americans do, sadly.
Now, as I said, Falwell wasn’t a child molester. But he did what he could, he did everything in his power — and succeeded, in many ways — to make life a living hell for many, many more innocent people than any child molester could ever victimize in his entire natural life. Falwell was a bigot. An agent of hate, of intolerance, of sexism, racism3, homophobia and fundamentalism. He spent his more than 70 years trying to make the world a worse place, trying to make life worse for a great number of people. It was not enough for him to hate them because of his bigotry; no, he had to convince half of America that the imaginary God they believe in also hated those people.
Is that forgivable? Or forgettable? Just because he died? Does death really turn a hateful monster into a saint, or at least a “harmless”, “worthy of respect” human being?
I don’t think so. People shouldn’t forget or forgive what this disgusting little man did, because there are others waiting in line to take his place this very moment. The battle against fundamentalism and intolerance is far from over… and far from won.
- avoided Godwin’s Law! Yes!
[↩] - couldn’t resist a Monty Python reference here. Sorry.
[↩] - yes, that too. He opposed the civil rights movement at the time, though he tried to hide that fact much later. [↩]





