Monthly Archive for January, 2007Page 2 of 2

"Proofs" of God’s existence

In Richard Dawkins’ The God Delusion, there’s a link to a hilarious list called “Hundreds of Proofs of God’s Existence“, which are nothing more than simplified, clearer versions of common arguments by theists for the existence of God.

It’s a long list, but I think it’s worth reading. :) Some of my favorites are below (if you’re not using the RSS feed or email subscription, you may have to click on the “Continue reading…” link to see them all):

11. ARGUMENT FROM CREATION, a.k.a. ARGUMENT FROM PERSONAL INCREDULITY (I)
(1) If evolution is false, then creationism is true, and therefore God exists.
(2) Evolution can’t be true, since I lack the mental capacity to understand it; moreover, to accept its truth would cause me to be uncomfortable.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

14. ARGUMENT FROM INTELLIGENCE
(1) Look, there’s really no point in me trying to explain the whole thing to you stupid Atheists — it’s too complicated for you to understand. God exists whether you like it or not.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

15. ARGUMENT FROM UNINTELLIGENCE
(1) Okay, I don’t pretend to be as intelligent as you guys — you’re obviously very well read. But I read the Bible, and nothing you say can convince me that God does not exist. I feel him in my heart, and you can feel him too, if you’ll just ask him into your life. “For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son into the world, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish from the earth.” John 3:16.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

Continue reading ‘"Proofs" of God’s existence’

Different kinds of atheism and agnosticism

Although the terms atheism and agnosticism have well defined meanings, I think that it would be of interest to separate each term into general and specific forms, because some common logical contradictions may become clear(er) by doing so…

  1. General atheism- “there is no god.” This includes me, and anyone who describes him or herself as “atheist”.
  2. Specific atheism- “this particular god doesn’t exist.” Most theists are, actually, specific atheists about every god but theirs.
  3. General agnosticism- “it’s impossible to know whether a god exists.” Self-described “agnostics” should, in theory, be here. However…
  4. Specific agnosticism- “it’s impossible to know whether this particular god exists.”

You probably know examples of each.

As I said, “true” atheists are general atheists. To them, it makes no sense to discriminate between one god and the other; they’re all fictional.

It would seem that the same would apply to agnostics, right? An agnostic should be one who can’t say whether there’s a god - any god at all - or not.

But, in fact, most self-described “agnostics” are really specific agnostics about one or more gods (usually, the most popular one where they live, which is, in most cases, the Christian god), and specific atheists about the rest. Which is a strange, hard to understand double standard, if you ask me.

In other words, most “agnostics” are agnostic about some form of monotheistic, all-powerful god, but they reject gods from extinct mythologies, such as the Greek, Roman, or Norse gods. They also, usually, reject gods from polytheistic religions, such as Hinduism or Native American Animism. They may not explicitly say so, but they don’t think that the chance of Yahweh existing (which is a question they’ve washed their hands of) is the same as the chance of Thor existing.

Why is that? I’d say it’s some form of cultural pressure, added to the fact that agnostics often are agnostic because they don’t care to think much about the subject (as someone said, “an atheist is an agnostic who’s thought about it.”).

I’m not saying that true, general agnostics don’t exist; however, most of the ones I talked to ended up showing themselves to be as I described above: agnostic about one god (or “type” of god), atheistic about the rest of them. A true agnostic, to me, would believe the Flying Spaghetti Monster to be as likely to exist as Yahweh or Allah. “But,” you say, “the FSM was invented just last year…” However, is the age of a myth a deciding factor? If so, there are much older mythologies than Christianity or even Judaism… Wouldn’t that make them even more likely to be true?

Another reply is “this god makes some sense, and could therefore exist, while those other gods are clearly absurd and man-made”. But… if you say that, you are judging. How dare you? :) Seriously, what makes you qualified to judge some gods as “absurd” and others as “plausible”? Could it be the same power of reason that you, yourself, admit is too weak and fallible to judge whether there is a god or not (otherwise, you wouldn’t be an agnostic, right?)?

In conclusion: looking at the list above, atheists are 1. Theists are 2 about every god but theirs. Agnostics should, theoretically, be 3, but in reality most of them are a mix of 4 about one or two gods, and 2 about every other deity.

Any thoughts?

8 possible ways to tell "true" Christians

Quite often, when a non-theist discusses religion and faith with Christians, he will criticize the behavior of one or more Christians he knows, either in the present or from history. The Christian’s reply to that will, almost always, be “Oh, those are not true Christians.”

Putting aside the fact that it’s a no true Scotsman fallacy (because one can always say that the more reprehensible examples aren’t “true ones”, redefining “true” as one sees fit), I want to examine the several ways in which someone (either a current non-theist, or a believer who wants to look at Christianity objectively) can know which of the many so-called “Christians” are the real thing. After all, without true divine intervention, how can someone objectively tell that “these guys” are “real” Christians, and that “those guys” are not?

Therefore, here are several possibilities to choose from. I’ll list them here, and also talk about the problems I see with each one.

  1. Anyone who truly believes in God, and that Jesus gave his life for mankind’s sins: It’s the most basic definition of “Christian”, isn’t it? However, people can (and do) have that basic belief, and yet interpret it in completely different ways, and also act accordingly to it in completely different ways.
  2. Anyone who says “I’m a Christian”: Many people in western societies describe themselves as “Christian”, but some do it out of tradition (especially in more Catholic societies), and some do it for some perceived gain (either political, or simply to be seen by others as “a moral person”). Besides, the problem of contradiction remains: many people have completely different ideas about Christianity, or interpretations thereof, and all of those call themselves “Christian”.
  3. The more fundamentalist ones: “Fundamentalist” doesn’t necessarily mean “terrorist” or something like that; it just means that one believes in their faith completely, without exceptions, and that it’s the most important thing in their lives, being a part of every single decision. Some would say that only these are “true” Christians, and even some non-fundamentalist ones would like to have the “strength” to be like this (if only the world wasn’t so full of temptation…). The problem with this is: fundamentalist to what? To the Bible only? To tradition? To church authority? To their own interpretation? It’s obvious that this description is too vague, therefore, we need a more specific one, say…
  4. Bible-only fundamentalists: These are the ones who believe that the Bible is the literal word of God, and the only source for their faith. Anything in the Bible is necessarily true, even if observation contradicts it; if the Bible and reality differ, then reality is obviously wrong. Any contradictions in the Bible itself are explained away as lack of understanding on the reader’s part, or by the reader trying to understand it with human logic and reason, when the Bible should be read with faith and the heart - to which, of course, there’s no such thing as “contradictions”.
    The problem here, which should be obvious to someone who’s actually read the Bible (something most Christians don’t actually do, except for Genesis, Exodus and the Gospels), is that the Christian Holy Bible is really full of atrocities - both commited by God (though apologists will say that, since God did it, it must have been good, since God is their only standard of “good”), and by the faithful - and, yet, the Bible praises those actions. From the genocide of several peoples just because they had the nerve of already living in the place that God “promised” to the Israelites, to killing people for homosexuality or for working on a Saturday, through the ideas that women were the property of men, slavery was acceptable, and many other examples, a true follower of the Bible would be the most intolerant, cruel, bigoted, hateful person alive. Fortunately, there aren’t many of those in western countries, because there’s still a separation between church and state, and murder is still a crime, even when using “but it’s right here in the Bible! I was only doing as God commanded!” as a justification. Still, doesn’t the Bible say that the law of God is infinitely more important than the laws of man? Therefore, true Christians shouldn’t mind going to prison for, say, killing anyone they saw working on Saturdays - much like suicide bombers don’t mind losing their lives, because they expect to go to heaven as a reward.
  5. The most caring, loving ones: This is what many people do. After all, some very minor parts of the Bible say that “God is love”, and Jesus was certainly much nicer than anyone in the Old Testament (including God himself), or than anyone after him (especially the apocalyptic, sexist, bigoted Paul, whom any real “follower of Jesus” should despise). It makes sense, picking the people you really see as loving one another, doing good works, being honest, helping those in need, and so on, as the real Christians.
    The problem, which you may have already spotted, is exactly the opposite as the previous one. Where does these guys’ “Christianity” come from? Certainly not from the Bible - they are acting in opposition to most of it. They are unlike their God, famous for destroying entire cities (and once, the entire world) as punishment - many times, killing not only the sinners but everyone nearby. They’re also unlike the prophets, who are praised through the Bible as “God’s chosen”.
    The question is raised, then: how are they “real Christians”, if they’re the opposite of what most of the Bible praises? Aren’t they, in effect, creating their own religion, by using only the, say, 1-2% of the Bible that speak of love and forgiveness, and refusing all the rest? I see two possibilities, here: either they are real Christians, and therefore Christianity should admit that the Bible is not the word of God after all, but a book written by intolerant, prejudiced, hateful men… or, instead, they aren’t real Christians, and are simply good people - who would be good without their belief in God, anyway.
  6. Those you agree with the most: It’s actually a variant of the above, really. It’s, of course, much too subjective, since people are all different - for instance, an intolerant person would like intolerant Christians, a charitable person would prefer charitable ones, and so on.
  7. The majority: The idea, here, is this: “if most people who call themselves Christians are like this, then ‘this’ is what Christians are.” This is more complex than it seems, and is somewhat of a two edged sword. If you said “most Christians are good persons”, then you could logically imply that “the ones who aren’t good persons aren’t really Christians”. But what if the majority of them aren’t really good persons? Besides, it’s virtually impossible to “count” the Christians and determine which ones are the majority; if I attempted to do so now, it would probably be more stereotyping than anything.
    Still, I believe that, when some “Christian” claims something that 99% of the Christians in the world oppose, it’s perfectly fair to say “you’re not really representative of Christians / Christianity”
  8. The “worst” ones: To be fair, if you already have a bone to pick with Christianity (say, due to some bad experience), you may, erroneously, pick only the worst examples of Christians as representatives of them all. And that’s unfair: though I am nowadays an atheist, I had a Christian education, and during that education I met some wonderful, caring human beings, whom I respect and admire to this day. Not all Christians are like Tomás de Torquemada, Pat Robertson or George W. Bush, much like not all Muslims are like Osama Bin Laden.

Richard Dawkins speaks at Randolph-Macon Woman’s College in Lynchburg

Seen first at God is for Suckers.

In the first part (about 30 minutes), Dawkins reads excerpts from his latest book, The God Delusion.

In the second part (about an hour), he answers questions from the audience. Most of the questions, apparently, come from teachers and students from Jerry Falwell’s Liberty University, which teaches — guess what — young earth creationism. Including dinosaurs living 3000 years ago, instead of being extinct 65000000 years ago, as they were in fact. :)

Continue reading ‘Richard Dawkins speaks at Randolph-Macon Woman’s College in Lynchburg’

Way of the Mind’s 10 most popular posts in 2006

Since every other blog seems to be doing it… :)

Sorted by number of visits, in ascending order:

10 - The problem of Agnosticism, part 2 - it’s a “part 2″ (see below for part 1), but it’s perfectly readable on its own. Discusses the contradiction of being “agnostic” about Yahweh, but “atheistic” about every other made-up deity.
9 - Christian myths about Atheism: discussion - there were so many comments for the “16 Common Myths about Atheism” post (see below) that I had to close that thread and open a new one, or my web server would have been very, very angry at me. :)
8 - The problem of Agnosticism - explores why agnostics are agnostic, and what’s wrong, in my opinion, with it.
7 - How I’ve become an atheist - one of the oldest posts on Way of the Mind, this tells of my own “deconversion”, and links to a brilliant Douglas Adams interview
6 - Why Atheism is not a religion - oddly enough, many people seem to think that it is - in other words, that it requires as much “faith” as theism. This post shows why that is not the case.
5 - Are the myths about atheists real or not? - after the popular “common myths” post, many people said I was creating “straw men” - in other words, the myths didn’t really exist. A simple search on Google News proved otherwise.
4 - “Closed minds” - disputes the common (and unfortunate) belief that “being sure of something is closed-minded” (also known as “reality is fluid”).
3 - Deism and Pantheism - a latecomer, this post describes those two not-very-well-known beliefs, whose proponents included many of the U.S. Founding Fathers, and Albert Einstein.
2 - Atheism: arrogance? - discusses why believing that 2+2 will still be 4 tomorrow isn’t “arrogant”.
1 - 16 Common Myths about Atheists - a list of what many theists believe — wrongly — about atheists in general. No, we don’t sacrifice babies. We don’t even boil young goats in their mothers’ milk. :)

How much do you REALLY know about the Christian Bible?

Since not everyone here visits the Way of the Mind Forum, where I posted this link a couple of days ago, and since this one is simply too good to be missed :), here it is:

What do you REALLY know about the Bible?

I got 35 out of 50. What about you? ;)




Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 2.5 Portugal
Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 2.5 Portugal