There’s a recent post at The Atheist Ethicist, The Source of Hatred, where Alonzo explores the question of why theists hate homosexuals.
According to him, religion is not the cause. It’s the excuse. It’s what bigots use to rationalize their bigotry: “the Bible says it’s an abomination.”
But… Leviticus also says that eating shellfish is an abomination! Yet most Christians probably eat shrimp, and, anyway, there was never any persecution of shellfish-eaters. Why is that? Why is one sentence taken as “God’s law”, and another just as “ancient dietary laws”, when they’re both forbidden in the same book, and the condemnation for both (“abomination”) is the same?
The answer, of course, is that people are already bigots (though an important source of that bigotry may well be church sermons). Saying “It’s God’s command” instead of admitting to their prejudice makes them feel better.
I loved this part in the article:
If biblical prohibition were the real source of condemnation, we would find ourselves in a society where shellfish eaters and bankers would be prohibited from participating in youth organizations like the Boy Scouts. Those who insist on such a ban would argue that those who so flagrantly violate God’s law cannot possibly be moral, and clearly cannot be considered good role models for our children.
What type of message does it give our children to be a member of a troop whose troop leader is known to be a practicing shellfish eater or banker – when the Bible so clearly identifies these acts as a violation of His law? These children will no doubt come to think that all of God’s law are open to question. This type of moral relativism is the last thing that we need to be teaching impressionable young minds.
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I think it’s kind of a double sided concept.
I’m sure there are plenty of Christians who don’t hate gay people, and actually think it’s proposterous.
They can always explain that they’re not denying God by explaining that it was what one persons opinnion was at one time, it just happened to be that the person in question wrote something that made it into the bible.
You can probably also find people of all different faiths, or no faiths, who are biggots.
The thing to always remember is the act of actually TEACHING biggotry can sway someone to that line of thought. Which is evil.
In other words, being religious doesn’t necessitate being a biggot, but it certainly ups your chances.
The logic you use can be used in reverse:
Why do atheists hate believers in God and then
live in His world as though it’s okay to sponge off his creation
without giving him credit for giving it to them.
In fact they hate Him so much, they spend blog line after blog line
denouncing His very existence. Yet they eat His food, drink His water and today look for His creation in space. Everything they find, they think it is just there for the taking, but deny any God was behind their privilege to take it.
In other words, Kren, “being an atheist doesn’t necessitate being a bigot, but it certainly ups your chances.”
Rev,
You make a number of false assumptions.
1. That those who employ reason suddenly abandon it in order to “hate” those who embrace hatred in the form of religion.
2. That there is a god which created the world.
3. That living by your own means and living responsibily is not living responsibly at all.
Unlike the case with Xns who have openly and often celebrate their hatred of jews, blacks, homosexuals, and various other groups throughout the ages, the fact is that those who employ reason have no need for such hatred. Certainly you cannot find any such examples as necessary to or inherent to rataionality unlike the case with xnty.
Also, (I’m quoting someone here, but I actually forgot who at this point)
“You can’t have hatred for something you don’t believe exists.”
Exactly. Rev, should I assume that, when you say you don’t believe in Thor, you really “hate” him instead?
Regarding shrimp: the New Testament seems to say that after Christ’s coming, dietary prohibitions no longer apply; this was revealed in a vision to St.Peter (Acts 10:9-16). But I’m just being pedantic, and I agree with your general argument about inconsistent attitudes.
Let me say that Christian’s should not “hate” anybody. If you want to make an argument based on the bible that’s probably the best place to start. Sin or not, Christians have plenty of commands and rebukes to love everyone.
That being said, and I’m not saying this to agree, but just so that you make sure you have a strong argument, Nikolay is right about the dietary prohibitions. Christian’s believe in the New Testament also and they’ll point out that most of the law is no longer necessary, however there are still a couple verses (just a couple) in the NT that reference homosexuality. Again, I’m not saying I agree at all, I’m just try to help you clear up your argument.
[quote comment="7338"]Regarding shrimp: the New Testament seems to say that after Christ’s coming, dietary prohibitions no longer apply; this was revealed in a vision to St.Peter (Acts 10:9-16). But I’m just being pedantic, and I agree with your general argument about inconsistent attitudes.[/quote]
Actually, Jesus SPECIFICALLY stated that the dietary laws did not apply. But the same thing is also stated about ALL of the Law. So this discussion is irrelevant to someone who is trying to follow Jesus’ teachings, because Jesus’ teachings dismissed the Law as a source of authority.
Arguments about homosexuality are usually made from various principles, not scripture, because the bible rarely mentions the subject.
-micah
http://emergentchristian.blogspot.com/
The main flaw I see in the rev’s argument is that, while us atheists don’t thank god for anything (being that we don’t acknowledge his existence), many of us do see the value in respecting all of “creation,” in that this is the only planet we get and we’re stuck with it for a while. Many Christians (and almost half of the U.S. population) are expecting the rapture any day now,e Jesus says it’s ok to ignore some old-testament laws so while they may be saying thanks, they’ve got no respect for the natural world or their fellow man because they’re sure god will destroy it all anyways.
And yea, I’ve also read up on wher, so the whole eating-shrimp-thing isn’t a contradiction for them. I think the real question that was side-stepped is, why do some christians feel the need to use the bible as an excuse to bash gays? What is it about gays that threatens their christianity?
Hi Pedro,
Thanks for the invite.
Just came over to check out your blog.
Possummomma
I think that Jesus teaches respect for the world and the universe we inhabit. The bible says that the earth will NOT be destroyed by any wrath of God, ever again.
Jesus is NOT returning to destroy the world, etc, etc.
The Old Testament should not be considered to be binding in any way on us today, and the New Testament is not a rule-book.
-micah
http://emergentchristian.blogspot.com
I have no doubt that the Jesus of the bible actually taught the idea of respect for the earth and others. That’s the Jesus I always liked.
You may not believe that Jesus is returning to destroy the world, but many people do. Just yesterday morning I was listening to the local preacher-station where a pastor was (trying to) describing the end-times as god “letting go” of all atoms in the universe, resulting in universal nuclear fission. Seriously. Many are taught to believe that science is a farce, the world is 6000 years old, and global warming is a scam to get them to stop having more christian babies on government welfare.
But, if god is going to destroy the earth, and they all think they’re going to heaven, what’s wrong with the gays again? Do they hate gays because they love gays and really just wish them to find Jesus? Or do they hate gays because gays can’t get married, so they’re all adulterers? Or are they threatened by the thought that all gays want to rape their sorry ass? Or the idea that perhaps they really do want a good ass-raping?
The Christians that hate gay people are just using something somebody wrote a LOOONG time ago, for a reason TO hate.
In other words, they CHOSE to hate.
Actually, true Christians do not hate anyone. We’re taught to hate the sin but love the sinner. People who use the label of Christianity to promote hatred of fellow humans are simply sinners in a different manner and I will love them and hate their sin just like I’ll do for anyone else.
[quote post="207"]People who use the label of Christianity to promote hatred of fellow humans are simply sinners in a different manner [/quote]
I agree.
You don’t need to be Christian to hate peoples horrible deeds and have love for fellow man though. No need for a God of ANY religion to live that way.
Either way, hating the “sin” of homosexuality is quite wrong.
There’s no need to hate something that doesn’t harm anybody.
Pedro,
First off, I am a Christian and I do not hate shellfish-eaters, homosexuals or you. Actually, I can’t think of anyone I hate now that I’ve taken time to think about it.
I think I’m going to make it part of my personal fun time to help you actually put together rational, well-developed arguments. For example, the simple answer to this is….
Things change over time. In Genesis alone God went from requiring a vegetarian diet to allowing for the eating of anything. Then, at a later point in time, He put forth more strict dietary requirements and other laws. By the way, these same dietary laws are later called into question in Paul’s letter to the Romans (Romans 14).
Reading Romans 14 (actually, for someone who talks about it so much I would have to recommend reading the entire Bible) will give you a little better understanding of the full-breadth of what changed when Jesus came. I would suggest that you study a subject before you claim any kind of authority because to make such a simple error speaks of arrogance, ignorance and agenda, not of logic.
Another simple answer is this, when people claiming to be Christians hate someone they are actually not being Christian they are being bigots and hypocrites.
So, I won’t make my opinions about all portuguese people based on you and would suggest that you, through your infinite logical skills, not base your opinions about a centuries old faith based on the few people you have met.
Pedro, you are cracking me up! Great thought provoking post!
The Advanced Soul,
Please understand that the existence of a soul, advanced or rudimentary, cannot be proven. Therefore, your name makes claims that cannot be true. By the way my “name” is Inuwashi – They exist but cannot type ;>
I am very curious why “atheists” are so interested or upset with people that hate other people. I am a christian but i haven’t always been and when i wasn’t christian, when i didnt know Jesus Christ i didnt really care what people thought of me or anyone else. I think postings like this show that somewhere in our souls God has built in portions of himself. And because we live such sinful unregenerate lives we start to hate and fight against our souls with our flesh.
I am sorry any christian has ever hurt a non christian in any way shape or form because Christ does not teach that ever. I pray that anyone who says there is no God at least takes the time to actually search. If you claim you do not believe in God but have never asked him to show you himself then i pray for you and your soul that God shakes you and reveals himself to you the way he did to me. Forget the idiots who hate gays or make it their life goal to tell everyone they are going to hell…. Look up, or down, close your eyes or leave them open and simply ask God to reveal himself to you.
This life is so short and no certain amount of years are ever garunteed. Think hard and try and come up with a reason why we are on this earth and why this earth is even here and what is going to happen when you die…if you can’t answer all of those questions then i think it is only in your benefit to actually search out the true Jesus and ask him to be your lord and savior.
adam.
[quote comment="8492"]I am very curious why “atheists” are so interested or upset with people that hate other people. … Think hard and try and come up with a reason why we are on this earth and why this earth is even here and what is going to happen when you die…if you can’t answer all of those questions then i think it is only in your benefit to actually search out the true Jesus and ask him to be your lord and savior.
adam.[/quote]
Adam, I am probably an atheist by most Christian standards; I don’t believe in any sentient, conscious being controlling the universe. I have a couple of points to make in response to your statements.
1. I don’t know any atheists who hate Christians or have any animosity towards anyone simply for their beliefs. People can believe whatever they want; that’s the beauty of not living in a theocracy. Where I start to dislike Christians is when they take their faith, i.e., opinions about an unprovable and unfalsifiable cosmology, and start using it as a basis for controlling the behavior of others. When your belief in an ancient text is used as a rationalization for hatred, I have problems with that.
2. Merely because a question has no scientifically provable answers does not mean that Christianity is the correct answer. I love the idea of a God watching over humanity, and I do feel there is much science cannot (and may not ever) explain. That does not mean that God exists or that Christianity is true. Your argument is pretty specious.
Can you prove why humans need to sleep? No? Well, my parents taught me that invisible fairies enter our brains at night and inject vital nutrients through our eyelids. If you don’t have an answer and can’t disprove my answer, then my answer must be correct.
FYI, I have studied Christianity, Judaism, Islam (Sufism), and a little Buddhism, and each religion has elements that are beautiful and have inspired me to live a better life.
-Al
Al –
Thank you for your reply.
on number 1, i do understand what you are saying about using the bible to control others. I agree with you for the most part. I also understand your point about fairies (as weird as that sounds), and why poeple have a very hard time believing in God/Jesus/Christianity.
I appreciate that you have studdied relegions and decide to live a better life. I truly hope you live a blessed life. I know that God cannot be 0 proven through science or studies because it takes faith. It takes believing in something we cannot wholly understand. Even when i think about it, it sounds crazy. But God is real. He has changed my life and many that i know.
I only hope that everyone will see and believe in the love and mercy that God has for them.
I am sure that the folks feeling the warmth of the xn god’s love upon them in Iraq and Darfur are truly appreciating that love.. Unless of course you are referring to the love from the men who speak with the xn god’s voice, who are his presense on earth who grant that special love to small boys.. I am sure that those boys fully appreciate that special privilege of the xn god’s love…
For me I cannot wish such evil upon anyone, rather I wish personal responsibility, happiness, and peace in their life.
TXStorm,
I said God’s love not the people who claim God’s love and hurt others. Abusing, killing, hatred, confusion to name a few are not a part of God’s love at all. I am sorry that’s the way you see christianity because of imperfectness of human nature. I never said i wanted people to feel the love of humans, nope. I said i hope they see and believe in the love and mercy of God. Please dont misquote me and turn things around. There is no human on earth that can perfectly display who God is because he is perfect. We try and that is our purpose but we screw up.
So Darfur is because of Christians? And Iraq? What about World War II, and Desert Storm? It is easy to blame your problems and the wrolds problems on an entire “Religion” due to some false witnesses.
Necessarily all of the evils of the world are the creation of this “god” and are directly its intention that the victims suffer, for were it otherwise this supposedly all powerful being could have prevented it, and this supposedly all loving being WOULD have prevented it.
BTW nice try, but the evilness of xnty cannot be so easily dismissed. It is not any move away from xnty that brings these evils, but rather the evil is inherent to the religion. I am NOT blaming anything based upon any false witnesses, nor even the blatant dishonesty of those who are christians such as yourself, but rather upon the religion and the description of this impossible entity they claim to worship.
And yes the attrocities in Iraq and Darfur are being udnertaken by xns in the name and full spirit of xnty. These are fine examples of xn love, as is your own use of dishonesty and blatant misrepresentation. I have not and will not misquote you, but I will not abide by your dictate to “not turn things around” given your own rather dishonest misrepresentation of the facts and the very nature of the evil known as xnty. We should all desire turning around falseness and revealing truth. Either your “god” created all evil, or else it is not the god you claim to worship. Of course if your god is evil, as it must be given the world in which we live and the evil nature of the religion dedicated to it, then it is not the god claim to worship. (Which of course simply proves that this notion of a “god” is self-defeating)
I stand behind my statements, and will not as you seem to demand, retract them because they are in direct opposition to your own desires for others.As I state in response to your wishing the full brunt of your religion/god’s “love” upon all others, for me I cannot wish such evil upon anyone, rather I wish personal responsibility, happiness, and peace in their life.
Why are these traits so undesirable and offensive to you that you have to mischaracterize what has been said, the facts, and my own actions?
Rev. Purser – You words were written like a true member of the privileged majority, and if you don’t know what I mean by that, it only illustrates it further.
Meantime, the problem with any logical argument relative to bigots, Christian or otherwise, is that almost none of them can follow it. Their brains do not work on logic, but on the rote soaking up of and regurgitation of information. Not knowledge, and certainly not wisdom, but simply information – like a robot. This is true for all bigots, but I think, most especially, religious ones (especially from the Abrahamic traditions, who, collectively, have been the overwhelmingly most violent in history).
tony
Tonyo: I don’t follow dghe religion I was brought uip with, but use the Bible only as another book of reference to live my life or to form opinions. Words from Abraham Lincoln and Benjamin Franklin carry as much weight when i find something which they say that i like. Several atheists on this very blog have gained my respect because of their insight.
It is not fair for you to stereotype any opinions as Christian, Muslim,
Atheist, or whatever, but to argue for or against only the content in front of you as you read the words sent to you, such as in this blog.
The objective is to arrive at the threshold or your own understanding of life for you and for you only. Once you polarize, you become a pope, whether it is, for instance, a Christian one or an Atheistic one.
A good “fight” would be:
1. Be willing to fight. (No namecalling and then running away.)
2. Don’t hit below the belt. (No attacks on what i cannot change.what ancestors have done is not my fault, nor relate to what I am now saying.
3. Stick with the fight until it is over. Keep the hits coming.
4. End in a clench.(Remain friends when the debate is over.)
Thesis, Anti-thesis, Synthesis. That is the fight ring we must assume.
We help each other throw our punches.
Whagt I need from you in the paragraph you wrote are specific
knockout punches to stop my antitheses to your arguments. Instead, I am thrown punches in the air, (generalities).
In the above, I have just illustrated what I am complaining about.
Rev,
Honest intellectual discussion also requires that one does not try to mislead, or mischaracterize. So for instance, when rational persons take the claims of xnty seriously, they see immediately that necessarily this “god” MUST be evil, if it could even exist. After all this “god” created everything, including the evil that it inflicts upon us (if it could exist).
Of course the rational individual may well not get that far since the rational individual recognizes quite quickly that the judeo-xn notion of a “god” is simply impossible and sadly quite silly if taken seriously. Since entities which cannot exist cannot possess traits, assigning evil to literally nothing at all is also impossible, and nonsensical.
But in every discussion with a xn there is an axiomatic unquestioned assumption that necessarily this impossibility cannot be explored, and the existence of this supposed entity necessarily exists despite all of reality. So given this, it truly is not possible to move forward with anyone who employs this tactic as they are not trying to understand anything or discover anything at all about reality, rather they are necessarily trying to prop up a false belief, to support an illusion against the bright light of reason and reality.
I can’t help it, but it does seem a little biggoted to say that people who disagree with homosexuality hate homosexuals. Atheists disagree w/ Christianity, do they hate Christians? I understand the problems there. All I’m saying is, don’t judge all of us based on the grievous behaviour of some of us.
sorry, I’m posting this so I can get emailed when folks respond. Forgive my idiocy
FR Iain,
You are jumping FAR too quickly to conclusions based upon false assumptions. The fact is that there is an enormous degree of hatred at the very core, and certain residing in the hearts of xns world-wide. To pretend that there is a mere dislike, or disagreeal, is nothing short of simply dishonest.
The Bible says that homosexuality is a sin, to be punished by death.
Individual Christians can be good, to the extent that they ignore much of the Bible… or of Christianity. Because, according to the Bible, and to many of the most influencial Christians, God really is a bigot.
TXTstorm,
Sorry for jumping to conclusions. That wasn’t my intent. Certainly many people calling themselves Christians, and even many Christians, have acted shamefully towards those who they should treat as made in the image of God. I don’t question that at all. My intent is more to ask questions and question assumptions. The assumption I want to question, or discuss, is that Christians, by virtue of their moral opposition to the homosexual lifestyle and homosexual acts, automatically *hate* homosexuals. I very adamently disagree w/ many if not most aspects of capitalism, but i don’t hate captalists. In fact, most of my friends are capitalists. If we cannot talk about the assumptions behind what we think and believe, then we have bigger problems than just ideology. So, the question is, can we question our assumptions? Or must we remain bound to what we have already assumed?
I would also question what my false assumptions are? If the object of argument should be progress not victory, it would be helpful if you would give more concrete examples. Otherwise, it just seems like name calling, (which I learned in logic class years ago is called an ad hominem).
First an ad hominem is the tactic used to distract from the lack of an argument by attacking the individual. Nothing remotely similar to this is found in the responses to your assertions, so the implication is unwarranted.
Since in order to be a xn you must advocate KILLING homosexuals, as shown to be a necessary aspect of xnty, then is your position that the basis for killing them is not fear or hatred, but…. something else entirely?
As for your capitalism example, and I realize that this is probably best handled in the forum since it is off topic, but I must ask: What do you have against freedom?
TXTstorm, two things on the ad hominem “*you* are jumping far too quickly to assumptions based on false grounds” until the assumptions and false grounds are clearly communicated, I think that that could constitute the ‘ad-hominem.’ Second, the accusation that there is “an enormous degree of hatred at the very core, and certain residing in the hearts of xns world-wide” doesn’t address the argument that I’ve posited, that Christians don’t hate homosexuals, we disagree with their lifestyle. To simply respond by saying “you’re wrong because Christians *do* hate homosexuals doesn’t address the issue. It simply sets up a straw man, and an easy one to attack since hate is evil. Thirdly, in my experience as a Christian (albeit a short time) I’ve never run across anything necessitating my killing any homosexuals. I have homosexual neighbors and go to church with homosexuals, so I’ve got ample opportunity. Most of the time, though, I say high and give them a hug rather than kill them. I’d like to hear where that comes from. My overall point, though, TXTstorm, which I would like not to be diverted from, is that to focus on those Christians who are filled with hate towards homosexuals deals with individual fallible people, and not the system of faith in Christianity. When we do that, we shut down dialogue. As for your final statement. You have to be able to see the problems in the logic there. There’s quite a jump from not agreeing w/ an economic system to having a problem w/ freedom. I don’t speak for all Christians when I say that. But I say it b/c of the breadth of freedom of thought that Christianity allows. A much greater breadth, I think, than American culture. As evidenced by how people react when you disagree w/ our particular cultural and political systems. Everything needs to be questioned TXTstorm, or, as the bible puts it (sorry) “Test everything, accept the good.”
[quote]I think that that could constitute the ‘ad-hominem.’[/quote]
You can think or feel that it is a cherry pie, but that belief will not make it so. Ad hominem is literally attacking the man. Pointing out FALSE ASSUMPTIONS is addressing the argument, not the individual. To attack the individual in the sense of ad hominem, I would have to say that your conclusion is false because you are an idiot or some other personal attribute rather than pointing out that your conclusion remains unsupported because the argument itself is logically flawed by the existence of false assumptions.
As for strawman you would have to demonstrate that in fact the argument made was not in fact the argument offered. Since you rely upon the notion of xnty, and since Pedro clearly established that killing homosexuals is central to xnty, then the burden of proof that this killing is not hate based but is rather based upon… what exactly?? is entirely your own.
I did not respond with the simple negation of your claim, but rather with the clear reference to the tome of xnty, the xn bible. Now you claim that you have never come across this, which would cause me to believe that you are employing the fallacy of equivocation with regard to the term “christian.” Either you follow the xn bible, and thus are an xn, or you adopt your own beliefs including this one contrary to the xn bible, and therefore are not xn. To switch back and forth between the two uses is textbook equivocation.
[quote]My overall point, though, TXTstorm, which I would like not to be diverted from, is that to focus on those Christians who are filled with hate towards homosexuals deals with individual fallible people, and not the system of faith in Christianity[/quote]
Then how pray tell do we decide which parts of the xn bible to accept as *really* xn, and which are not?
[quote]There’s quite a jump from not agreeing w/ an economic system to having a problem w/ freedom.[/quote]
There is no jump here at all. You stated that you dislike capitalism, the free market which is necessarily simply the lack of government intervention in the free exchange between individuals. It is simply one of the inseparable characteristics of freedom. Therefore necessarily if you oppose the free association of individuals with regard to their welfare, including economic welfare, you must oppose freedom per se. No other option exists.
TXTstorm, sorry for the delay, I’ve been moving into a new house w/ no internet connection, so I’ll have to disengage after this post (I’ll try to close up whatever loose ends I can). As for the equivocation argument, I don’t see the ‘proof’ that killing homosexuals is central to Christianity. In fact, I don’t think it’s rude to say that the claim is preposterous (first off, since there actually is no biblical text calling for the death of homosexuals. But, that’s beside the point, because the text does call for their exclusion which could be just as distasteful.) Actually, I think it’s on the level of claiming that raising up a militia and overthrowing the gov’t is central to the Constitution. After all, don’t we have the right to keep and bear arms and organize militias? (I don’t think the claim is true, I’m using it to prove a point). To select a text from the bible and posit that it’s central to Christian teaching betrays a deep misunderstanding as to what the bible is. Unlike the dhamapada and some parts of the Koran, the bible is not simply a religious manual. So, you can’t look up the chapter “what to do with homosexuals” and find the instruction “kill them”. In reality, the bible is a collection of literature (poetry, narrative, laws, letters, etc.) ranging across centuries, continents, and cultural contexts, and must be interpreted in light of that. So, when Ecclesiastes says, “eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die,” you have to decide whether it’s a proscriptive command or a descriptive statement of the author’s existential experiment. I do a lot of work trying to open up dialogue between Christians and Non-Christians, and what I find, often, is that those who are most opposed to Christianity know what its critics say, but they have never really examined what *Christians* say about their own religion. So, if I may be so bold, I’d like to leave you with a challenge. Examine Christianity’s claims from the perspective of what intelligent respected Christians say. Until you can do that, you really have no room for challenging the faith. Sorry to leave you w/ that, but I have to get the house cleaned up! Peace out
Well Fr Iain, if the xn bible is insufficient evidence of what is central to xnty, then necessarily nothing can be. Claiming otherwise, as you do here, to use your turn of phrase, demonstrates a deep misunderstanding as to what the bible is.
The notion that someone is making the argument that the xn bible is designed in the manner of a modern instruction guide is a rather silly strawman tactic. Yes necessarily the xn bible DEFINES what xnty is. In this sense it in fact is an instruction manual in the form of a conditional statement: IF you wish to be xn, then necessarily you must abide by ALL of the dictates of the xn bible. So this means that you will kill homosexuals, kill those who do not share your faith, treat women as chattle, do not overly abuse your slaves, etc.
Now, as to the implication that I and others who merely happen to disagree with your own assertions and recreations about xnty must not be familiar with xnty, well this is merely a form of an ad hominem attack, as well as an appeal to private “knowledge.” I have examined the claims of “intelligent xns” and have refuted them quite easily as has been done here with your own proclamations. You see the very faith which defines xnty is the key to the defeat of the claims because faith is directly contrary to reality and truth, thus making any argument which is based upon truth, knowledge and evidence impossible for the faith based position to succeed.
So as I have met your challenge, and since clearly you advocate the use of such challenges, I challenge you to familiarize yourself with sound reaosning, the nature of evidence, and then examine the claims of xns, along side the many and varied refutations of those claims.
I would also ask that you actually read the arguments presented and address those rather than engaging in these intellectually dishonest and uncivil tactics. An honest civil intellectual discussion has no need for such tactics, nor can it exist where one side refuses to allow that the only possible common ground (reality/reason) can exist.
I’d offer up this quote as direct refutation of your claim that “there actually is no biblical text calling for the death of homosexuals.”
Leviticus 20:13
13 ” ‘If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
Unless you wish to claim that this is not part of the bible (an obvious false and silly claim) then clearly the xn bible DOES in fact require the killing of homosexuals (at least male homosexuals). Perhaps your are reading it in such a way that since you are killing them, but this bible claims that the responsibility for the murder lay upon the heads of those who were merely peacefully giving pleasure to each other, that you are not actually killing them.. dunno.. regardless it remains true that the xn bible does require the murder of homosexuals so the entire argument based upon this false assumption that this does not exist in the xn bible is necessarily unsound.
Christians pick and choose what they want to believe, which is fine with me. What I find disgusting is how they try to legislate their idealogy so that others are forced to live by their rules. I have no respect for that at all.
TX: The Judae-Christian Religions believe that evil is inflicted upon the good because the good did evil and God uses evil upon the
not done for God, but for mankind. God needs nothing, has no ego trip going, and simply, and incredibly to mankind, only gives Himself away. Such a liberal belief is still a matter of faith, cannot be proven, but is an improvement over the belief in a vengeful God who inflicts judgment uon mankind when he is irritated with the way mankind operates in God’s world and universe.
Mankind is also allowed to be atheistic, ignore God, (atheists never seem to want to go that route, seem to have more fun debating his existence).
Christians say, “Let go and let God.” Atheists just won’t let God go and use the ploy that the reason they are so interested in his non-existence is that those who believe in his existence, historically have been abusive to the rest of mankind.
Atheists have a high sense of respect for mankind as long as they do not believe in God and will want to protect those non-believers from any abuse, usually only with words.
If atheists are volunteering in any service organizations just to help those who suffer, they must be doing it without publicity, the perfect Christian act, “Doing What Jesus Would Do.” I can’t think of one atheist who is doing it any other way.
If all of you are helping this way, then neither God nor I should complain about what any of you believe. You are living the way Jesus would want you to live. However, it would be an eye- opener to all Christians were the Atheists who are helping make the world a better place would “come out of the closet” so more Christians would be inspired to do more Christian acts of Justice, Kindness,and Humble Walks with God. Chhristians then would not have a leg to stand on when Atheists announce that they do not believe in God.
[quote comment="7331"]Exactly. Rev, should I assume that, when you say you don’t believe in Thor, you really “hate” him instead?[/quote]
I don’t hate Thor enough to spend my debating time against those who believe in Thor or disbelieve in Him. I just can’t get up enough energy to discuss Him. I wonder why we both do about God.
[quote comment="26482"]Christians pick and choose what they want to believe, which is fine with me. What I find disgusting is how they try to legislate their idealogy so that others are forced to live by their rules. I have no respect for that at all.[/quote]
Atheists pick and choose what they don’t want to believe, which is fine with me. What I don’t find is legislation about their ideology which forces them to live by the rules of society which are designed to keep criminals, disease, etc. in check. I have no respect for any rule which we are forced to live by because it is someone else’s religion, fundamentalist, liberal agnostic or atheist. I would like to hear what you are forced to live by and if you then are living by those rules because they were voted on by people who believed in God. And I suspect, then that you refuse to lie by the rules if any of them were forced upon you by those who did not believe in God. In other words, I don’t think ideology had anything to do with “approved rules” insisted upon by those who rule us, Governments. List them and I will comment.
Pedro: I do not have to live today with yesterday’s religious opinions, beliefs and commands. God speaks to me just as he spoke to them years ago,i.e. via my searching for answers. “Seek ye the Kingdom.” If had to limit my life by the Bible, we would not have flush toilets in churches and the Church of Christ (non instrumental) denomination would be joyous
For someone who does not exist, you all sure to spend a lot of time keeping him alive in the hearts and minds of all you read you.
We call people who have to do that “Evangelists.” That word comes from the word “angel” and means “messenger.”
Pedro: my last response was about 1/5 of what I actually wrote. is this site limited to so many word? If it is, I don’t want to respond any more.
Examples are important in writing. I think you got the first and last paragraph and the reference to the Church of Christ was about organs, not the flush toilets which was the sentence above it.
Now, I don’t have a copy of what I wrote and it was priceless.
rev: I didn’t censor or edit anything, nor is there any size limit here. I’ve just gone through the list of comments automatically tagged as spam (the spam filter occasionally makes mistakes), and there wasn’t anything by you in there. So I don’t know what might have happened, but believe me: I didn’t delete anything, and, as far as I can see, neither did WordPress.
Pedro: I believe you. I must have inadvertently done it. I didn’t see it go. Thanks for your reply.
Tony: Your judgmental statements are basically correct, but for the wrong reasons. I do think many of the rules and regulations of the laws were designed to stop impositions upon people. Then, by establishing authority among the priests of the temple, they were to be obeyed.
However, there is a progression in history of law changes, starting in the Bible or other religious books of other groups in that time. For instance, “If Cain is avenged 7 times, truly Lamech 77 times” changed to “an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth,” then again with Jesus to “turn the other cheek, go the second mile” and then Jesus again to “love your enemies, do good to them that hate you.”
Throughout the Bible is proof that it is only a record of the progressive revelation of God, given to mankind as much as mankind has been willing and able to receive. Every science and math book, for instance, is a word from God because all comes from one source and that source is all there is in existence. Also, God is not the Alpha and the Omega (The beginning and the end” because life is eternal and there is no beginning nor an end. Everything there is comes from everything there was and will become everything there will be. That concept is new to this century, once again a revelation from the Creator. This is why Jesus said: “Seek and ye shall find, knock and it will be opened unto you, Call upon Him while he is near. The Kingdom of God is at hand (at your fingertips) and always was and always will be That is the WAY it works. That is the Truth. That is the LIFE.
HOW ELSE?
And re: this blog: the progression of sex is showing there will not be a distinction between any of them soon. You can see it coming.
Gays right now are going through the same abuse blacks did decades ago.
Women in the middle of these two. Foreign countries behind most of us in women, but ahead of us in racial acceptance. All progressing along.
America owns 70 of the world’s resources and the world lives on the other 30%. The progression has begun to change that too. 3rd world countries are angry over it and “Animal Farm” by George Orwell will come true, the proletariat will rise up and make it very difficult for the rich. 9/11 is just the beginning of this.
All of it is the Family of God trying to find out how to live and enjoy themselves in a place given with no strings attached except to learn how to do it right by respecting one another as brothers and sisters of a Heavenly Father.
As a Christian, or a person, or a liberal, I cannot prove my belief in the creator of it all, but I believe it is the best answer offered in 20 centuries or more.
I challenge you to offer a better one.
Christianity aka organized religion is frequently used as excuse for hate. It was used to justify the inhuman attack against Matt Shepard, it is being used by hateful Fred Phelps to justify his picketting at funerals, it has been used to start wars and committ horrible acts of hate and violence.
If God and is charge of so many thing (and I believe He is) then why does He create gays in the first place?
Come to think of it why did His Son KISS Judas if its such a sin?
Well,
The truth is is that the old testament is more of what we look back on. Shell fish was prohibited because they could not correctly cook it and would become sick and possibly die. The same reason they were commanded to use the restroom several hundred feet from their tents; because it was not healthy.
I am a Christian and not even one claims it and embraces other ideas; I am a missionary, and a worship leader, but I do not by any means hate homosexuals. Christ loved all, regardless of who they were. When an adulteress woman was brought before Jesus, the accusers used law from the old testament, from which the rules of shell fish and homosexuality are also drawn. They told Him that the law required them to stone her and Christ replied, ‘Let the person who has not sinned throw the first stone.’
Wait, don’t judge? WHAT? Jesus said that? He doesn’t hate homosexuals? WHAT?
No, we are called to love, not judge. I do not hate them by any means and I was actually in the middle of writing a debate paper for my governement class. What was my argument? I am arguing for homosexuals rights in the army. Wow, what a crazy idea.
And to the guy who wrote this, it’s obvious that your atheist author didn’t do his research. Even Christ said that he came to fulfill the law, not enforce it. He wasn’t there to judge or rule, he was there to love.
And to TXstorm, don’t get angry at Christians who hate homosexuals if you are going to make statements like, ‘You make several false assumptions…that there is a god who created the world.’ If you are so much better than the hateful christian, act like it and don’t take shots at other people’s beliefs. Act like the grown up that atheists profess to be.
Most of the criticism of my statements in this blog are
criticisms of historical statements of belief from former Christians or the Bible.
God, creator of everything, reveals to mankind progressively as mankind pursues answers to his questions at each level of his growth.
This would mean, in this blog, that we should only deal with the thoughts, ideas and beliefs expressed in the present.
When those thoughts, ideas and beliefs adhere to the historical
thought, outdated as they are,we have to be replace them with better solutions to the questions asked.
It is easier to judge a person’s thought by what those from whom they have come and then document how wrong they are with what they say with what others said earlier. It is an easy trick to win a point.
Leave the New and Old Testament alone and deal with the
present thought. “Speak with authority, not as the scribes.”
For instance, when i have a thesis, come at me with an anti thesis rather than trying to prove ;me wrong by reviewing the writers from which I may have read 40 years ago which are centuries old. Then when you offer a rebuttal, assume that you are right about my thesis being wrong, and that you will be wrong when a rebuttal of what you says proves it, whether it comes from me or someone else.
My chief complaint here is that atheists thrive of what they do not believe, rather than on what they do and if we both stuck with what we do believe, we could help each other grow to a higher level of thinking about our reason for existence.
For instance, my personal belief in this reason is that we are
to multiply the universe, there is no end to creation,and that
creation was created by…. I cannot go with everything just happens and always has. Stay with this argument and leave everyone else’s beliefs alone when you do the rebuttal. It is not helpful for you to damn me with anyone’s former beliefs.
I have a right to be me.
tx storm: you assume that God is responsible for evil when
He is Good. Evil is the absence of Good. God is not there.
just because the hebrew and 20 centuries of xtndom gave God credit for evil does not make me a believer in a God who creates evil to balance out good.
i do believe that Creation is designed so that if certain rules of creation are not followed, mankind gets in trouble, just as you would get in trouble if you were working on your car and decided that you were going to turn the screwdriver or wrench the opposite to what it was designed to do. You don’t blame gthe screwdriver or the wrench for the screwup.
So, when we do what is in sync with Creation,, we cope and when we don’t, we sin (pun on sync) out of sync is sin because in sync serves us well.
God, in the meantime does not judge us as the Hebrew thought, but
our acts to get us out of sync judge us as we do them. Jesus said it: “I do not come to judge, for you are judged already!”
People assumed he was talking about God as judge, then gave him
credit for being God, even though he prayed to his heavenly Father, all of it really lousy theology, thus food for atheists
thought.
But, when you leave the history of belief out of it, and think for yourself God as Good and evil as the absence of Good makes a lot more sense than Creation just happens with no Creator.
Argue with me, but not with 20 centuries of theologians at different levels of belief. When we disagree, both of us can thrive on the disagreement and grow.
One of us has a thesis, the other then an anti thesis and when we
work it out, a synthesis happens and we start again from there.
Nothing we talk about is The Truth, but a truth competing with another truth and making a synthesized truth to build from again.
Such a debate produces the Revelation of God, given to man as he is willing and able to perceive it.
“Seek ye the Kingdom and all of this will be yours as well” means the same thing. Jesus was a smart cookie. Chew on the cookie.
TO BIRMS IN APRIL: YOU ARE RIGHT THE WAY YOU WRITE AS LONG AS YOU BELIEVE, WHILE YOU DO NOT JUDGE,
THAT HOMOSEXUALS HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO THEIR LIFESTYLE
AND BE JUST AS GOOD A CHRISTIAN AS YOU AND I DO WITH OUR LIFESTYLE AS HETEROS.
YOU ARE RIGHT THE WAY YOU WRITE AS LONG AS YOU BELIEVE, WHILE YOU DO NOT JUDGE, THAT ATHEISTS HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO THEIR NON-BELIEFS AS ANYONE WHO PROFESSES TO BE A CHRISTIAN DOES WITH HIS BELIEFS.
PERSONALLY, I HAVE FOUND IN DEBATING ATHEISTS AND HOMOSEXUALS, THAT THEY ARE FOR THE MOST PART, JUST AS HONEST AND SINCERE AS THE REST OF US AND I VALUE GREATLY
THEIR OPENNESS IN DEBATE. IT, TO ME, IS THE ONLY WAY TO GO.
ONE’S OPINION, WHILE NECESSARY IN DEBATE, IS SECOND AND THE WILLINGNESS TO BE OPEN TO DEBATE WITH THOSE OPINIONS IS FIRST.
IT IS THE PROCESS WHICH BRINGS ABOUT THE REVELATION OF GOD. IT IS NOT NECESSARY TO BELIEVE IN GOD TO RECEIVE THIS REVELATION ABOUT THE WAY HIS KINGDOM, IN WHICH WE LIVE AND MOVE AND HAVE OUR BEING, OPERATES.
THERE ARE NO EGO STRINGS TO AND FROM THE CREATOR. WE SEEK AND FIND IN A WORLD WE HAVE BEEN GIVEN. THIS GIFT IS TO US FROM THE CREATOR WITH UNCONDITIONAL LOVE. IT IS FREE, COMPLETELY FREE FOR US TO DECIDE WHICH WAY WE WISH TO BELIEVE ABOUT WHAT WE OBSERVE.
FOR ALL WHO BELIEVE IN A CREATOR, THEY SHOULD SEE THEIR CREATOR WELCOMING ALL LIFESTYLES AS HIS CHILDREN, EACH ONE IN THE FAMILY OF GOD SEARCHING FOR THE MEANING FOR HIS OWN EXISTENCE.
EATING FROM THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE WAS FORBIDDEN IN THE EARLY BELIEFS OF THE HEBREW PEOPLE BECAUSE TO KNOW WOULD ,IN THEIR MINDS BE MAKING HUMANS EQUAL WITH GOD WHO KNOWS ALL. THAT, SINCE THEN, HAS CHANGED. MANKIND HAS LEARNED. JUST AS JESUS TAUGHT TO “SEEK THE KINGDOM AND ALL OF THESE SHALL BE YOURS AS WELL.” THAT IS PROGRESSIVE REVELATION, WHETHER WE CREDIT THAT REVELATION COMING FROM OUR CREATOR OR JUST HAPPENING BY PURSUIT. FRANKLY, I BELIEVE THAT GOD COULD CARE LESS WHETHER WE THINK ONE WAY OR THE OTHER ABOUT HIM. IT DOES APPEAR THAT TO BELIEVE IN OUR CREATOR GIVES US SOMEONE TO BE GRATEFUL TO FOR WHAT WE HAVE. AND WE BUILD WHAT WE DO HERE FOR THOSE IN THE FUTURE, JUST AS OTHERS BUILT FOR US IN THE PAST. THAT TOO IS THE UNSELFISH WAY OF LIFE AS IT IS.
FUNNY HOW GOD DESTROYED A COUPLE OF CITIES (SODOM AND GOMORRAH) FOR SODOMY BUT NEVER ONE FOR EATING SHELLFISH! THE EATING LAWS WERE REVISED IN THE NEW TESTAMENT – LAWS AGAINST HOMOSEXUALS WERE NEVER CHANGED!
JOSSI: HIS SON DID NOT KISS JUDAS, JUDAS KISSED HIM, GOT PAID 15 SHEKELS OF SILVER (OR WAS IT 14, HMM?) TO DO IT, THUS I.D.ING
HIM TO THE ENEMY WHO TOOK HIM TO COURT. JUDAS BECAME A TRAITOR TO JESUS. YEH, THAT WAS A NO-NO. JESUS WAS THEIR SHEPHERD AND SO JUDAS WAS HIS SHEEP. SO IT WAS REALLY B-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-D!
GOD DID NOT DESTROY ANYONE FOR EATING BARBECUE SANDWICHES AT SCRUBBY’S EITHER. I THOUGHT YOU GUYS WERE NOT GOING TO GIVE UP REASON FOR RELIGION?
YOU GUYS AND GALS ARE TAKING THE REVELATION OF GOD THAT YOU BELIEVE IN TODAY (THE GOD IS ISN’T THIS AND THE GOD WHO ISN’T THAT) AND COMPARING THAT BELIEF WITH THE GOD OF THE HEBREWS. IT IS LIKE COMPARING ANY PRIMITIVE BELIEF WITH MODERN SCIENCE. YOU DON’T GIVE UP SCIENCE BECAUSE THOSE YEARS AGO SAW THE WORLD DIFFERENTLY.
I ALWAYS AM READING HERE A PATTERN OF WHAT YOU DO NOT BELIEVE AND I WOULD LIKE TO SEE WHAT YOU DO BELIEVE. TELL ME WHAT YOU BELIEVE ABOUT HOW ALL OF THIS IN WHICH YOU NOW LIVE GOT STARTED, IF THERE WAS NOT A WHO THAT DID IT, WAS THERE A WHAT? AND A WHERE? AND A WHY? SURELY, YOU MUST KNOW WHAT IT IS IF YOU ALSO KNOW WHAT IT IS NOT.
OK, I AM ALL EARS!errr….ALL EYES!
I really believe that the only reason that God destroyed the cities that were practicing to be homosexuals was because its plain down disgusting… T-T and the reason why he NEVER destroyed any cities for eat shell fish was because if u eat anything that is considerd unclean or touch the carcass of it u r only unclean until sunset… read and UNDERSTAND Levicitus 11 if u dont believe me.( about eating unclean foods and what will happen ) T-T and im pretty sure that ALL christians dont hate homosexuals. T-T i know that im a christian and i dont.
WHEN THE HEBREWS DESTROYED A CITY FOR ANYTHING, IT WAS SAID THAT “GOD DESTROYED” BECAUSE THE HEBREWS BELIEVED THAT THEY WERE THE CHOSEN PEOPLE OF GOD AND SO ANYTHING THEY DID RIGHT WAS RECORDED AS GOD-DIRECTED. THE HEBREWS WHO WROTE THIS ABOUT HOMOSEXUALS BELIEVED THAT HOMOSEXUALITY WAS DISGUSTING, SO THEY SAID THAT GOD DID IT WHEN THEY DESTROYED THE CITY. IT WAS NOT LYING, IT WAS A FAITH OF A PEOPLE TOWARD GOD. THEY REALLY DID BELIEVE THAT GOD DIRECTED THEIR BELIEFS.
WHEN A PEOPLE BELIEVED THAT NEGROS WERE NOT HUMAN BEINGS, BUT MONKEYS, AND CALLED THEMSELVES A NATION UNDER GOD, THEY BELIEVED THAT THE NATION WAS DIRECTED BY GOD. SO THE U.S.A. BEFORE CIVIL RIGHTS PRACTICED THIS BELIEF AND CONSIDERED IT GOD DIRECTED.
BUT, WHEN THE SLAVE OWNERS IN THE U.S.A. WENT TO BED WITH THE WOMEN SLAVES AND HAD THEIR CHILDREN, THEY DID NOT CONSIDER THEMSELVES AS BREAKING THE BESTIALITY LAW, EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE HAVING SEX WITH A MONKEY, BECAUSE IT WOULD HAVE THROWN THEM IN JAIL FOR BESTIALITY!
THIS REMINDS ME OF SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE’S RENDITION OF “THE CHURCH LADY” WHEN SHE WOULD SAY. “HOW CONVEEEEEEEEEENIENT!”
HOMOSEXUALITY IS A PREFERENCE FOR A DIFFERENT DISTRIBUTION OF SKIN DUE TO A BIRTH MIX OF MALE AND FEMALE CHROMOSOMES. ONE EXTRA IN A BIRTH DID THE TRICK AND IS NO FAULT OF ANYONE AND GOD IS NOT GOING TO PUNISH ANYONE FOR PRACTICING THEIR SEXUAL DESIRES ACCORDING TO THE WAY THEY WERE BORN. BOTTOM LINE: IT IS AN UNCONDITIONAL LOVING GOD WHO LOVES MANKIND, PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE.
GAYS AND LESBIANS WHO WISH TO LIVE TOGETHER AND ADOPT THE CHILDREN IS A GOD SEND TO TAKE CARE OF ALL THE UNWANTED CHILDREN THAT ARE GIVEN BIRTH BY HETEROSEXUALS WHO SCREWED UP THE PROCESS OF HAVING SEX AT THE RIGHT TIME IN THE RIGHT PLACE AND FOR THE RIGHT REASON, TO HAVE KIDS, THEN TAKE CARE OF THEM UNTIL THEY WERE OLD ENOUGH TO TAKE CARE OF THEMSELVES.
CHILD ABUSE, IN THE MEANTIME, IS DONE BY 1% OF THE POPULATION, NOT BECAUSE THE ABUSERS ARE ONLY HOMOSEXUALS. HAVING CHILDREN AND NOT TAKING THE RESPONSIBILITY TO TAKE CARE OF THEM ONCE YOU BIRTH THEM IS CHILD ABUSE AS MUCH AS PHYSICALLY MOLESTING THEM.
CHILD CARE IS ADOPTING THOSE SAME CHILDREN AND GIVING THEM LOVE AND NURTURING THEM TO BECOME BEAUTIFUL CHILDREN OF GOD. THOSE WHO NURTURE THEM WILL ALWAYS BE BLESSED BY GOD.
ONE DAY THIS WILL BE ACCEPTED BY ALL MANKIND AND WHEN IT IS, GOD’S REVELATION ABOUT THIS SUBJECT WILL BE ACCEPTED BY ALL MANKIND. THAT IS THE WAY GOD HAS “SPOKEN” TO MANKIND FROM THE BEGINNING OF MANKIND. IT IS THE WAY GOD OPERATES IN MANKIND’S WORLD. IT IS “THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE.” LIVE WITH IT!
why do some of u only write in capital letters…?.? >.> >..>
i may have started this several years ago and after so many people complained about it, they got tired of doing that, realized that the caps were easier to read, thought of those who are not as visionary as others and then saw that they were not keeping with the subject and instead complaining about capital letters.
So, they repented of their sins and began to do what i was doing and wrote with capital letters. Then, when everybody began to do it, those who stood out were those who did not write with capital letters like I did when I was the only one writing with them. They they complained.
So, no matter which way you go, don’t worry about the complainers, stick with the more important debates, and you will forget about the capital letters, lose your fixation about them, and begin focusing on the more important issues of the day. Writing small for the visually impaired is like capital punishment.
I think a big part of the problem is disagreement being perceived as hate. I believe, because I have been there, that a heterosexual and a homosexual can express their views, even in a heated debate without it being hatred one for the other.
I want to say I am a Christian and take offense that most people tag Christianity with these hate issues. Sure some, many, do go about things the wrong way with the wrong attitudes adn even with the wrong theology. Biblically, Homosexuality is clearly an abomonation. The old, tired levitical law argument is worn out and distorted by people that simply do not understand the work of Jesus Christ and what took place on the cross. There were over 600 laws under the old covenant. Thank God for the new covenant of grace and mercy purchased in Jesus’ blood! Homosexuals, Agnostics, Atheists, Murderers, Thiefs, Adulterors, Prostitutes, Drunkards, GOD LOVES YOU SO MUCH HE came as a MAN to live among us then offered himself as the ultimate sacrifice so that we do not have to bear the eternal punishment of our sin condition.
As an adulteror, drug user, and dealer, I found that to be great news many years ago. The problem was, the news was not enough. I had to come into the presence of God so my sin was revealed and I was changed from the inside out. That is hard for people to understand but it is a real event that is given (grace) to anyone who accepts it. Unfortunately, acceptance of the gift is 2-part. Faith & Repentance. My problem, as it is with so many, repentance was where I failed and was not changed. It was easy enough to believe but I liked my sin. To me it felt good. I like the women, the drugs and the money. Until I repented, I was just another newborn Christian still sucking the bottle and not growing to discover the truth.
Where are you at Christians? Are you so infantile in your faith that all you can do is suck the bottle and scream hate at peole that don’t believe as you do? Jesus would not be doing this. Yes, he would face the sin but he would not be out with his megaphone screaming GOD HATES QUEERS! God loves queers and any mature Christian knows this and should be telling it.
Homosexuals, I have to say something. I love you. God loves you. As a Christian, I apologize for those that say they are Christians when truly they only believe in Jesus but have never gone further in faith to be born again. I have watched and listened from both sides. I want to offer that the perverted images homosexuls so proudly display takes your cause backawards in time. You have laid claim to a wrecked image and said “This is what gay means” and caused people to assume that homosexulas love to put on leather ass-chaps, jock straps, and even parage around nude with painted bodies waving rainbow flags is the overall accepted and promoted stereotype of the homosexual. You and I both know this is 1. NOT TRUE and 2. Not the image that is going to make anyone want to listen to you. Your sexual preference doesn’t matter to too many people. What stirs the crap in this pot is putting perversion in the face of straight people (does not matter about their faith). Why not just be who you really are and be happy. No one is trying to bring you down or discriminate they just aren’t going to be force-fed the negative stereotype.
I love you all here and hope I have peacefully made my point. I hope one day that all the negative can be exterminated and we can just talk without being so darned outrageous about everything.
John Galloway
Street Minister
john galloway
you can “love” all you want and believe that homosexuality is an abomination all you want, but what you are really doing is trying to be noble with God’s children who were born with opposite sex organs and opposite sex desires and demand that they change or else you are going to stereotype them as abominators. Puh-leeeeeeze! Enough of the hypocrisy! God made them that way! That’s like in the 1800’s demanding that all blacks become whites in order to not be a monkey and become a child of God! How dare you!
your argument is not valid just because you come up with examples of extreme dress and practices of the sensationalists in the gay community while leaving out all the gays you never see because they dress just l like you and I do, “normal.?” Shall I point out 6 dozen characteristics of heterosexuals who sleep with other men’s wives, run nightly after street prostitutes, beat women, etc. just to make that entire group look bad and therefore justify my argument. Puh-leeeeeze! Enough of the hypocrisy! How dare me!
Perversion, by your definition would also have to be that all people who live as single men and women for life have perverted the way God intended for them to be! I bet you don’t have a problem with that! And if these single men and women adopt all the children born to unwed mothers. that would be wrong too, because God intended for all children to have the mothers and fathers who bore them and it would be a perversion to do otherwise, even if the real mothers and fathers were dead!
Just because people at the time the bible was written believed what they did and wrote it as they were inspired to do does not make what they wrote “right” for 20 centuries. Jesus said that often, when he said: “It was said, but I say unto you” and changed the “Word of God” which “could not be changed, no, not one iota.” Oh, yes it can, because it is a progressive revelation of God given to man as he is willing and able to receive it. As we learn, we discover more loving ways to deal with our living. When we do, that is the Way. The Way is progressive. When we do, we learn the Truth. That is progressive. When we learn the truth for our day, that is the Life we live for our day. And tomorrow?… What we know now will change for the better. That is the way God operates in this world with no hands but ours to do His will and that includes hands that write rules and regulations and beliefs about God. That is how we get to know Him. It is the knowledge of God, progressively given to man as he is willing and able to receive and accept it. God is not a pushy guy!
Marvin,
From your title I would expect more knowledge. Are you a Pastor? I sure hope you’re not leading a congregation.
You’ve grossly miscomprehended almost everything I said in my comment. Read it a couple more times and you’ll get it. I have not ordered anyone to change and to compare anything I said with such a ridiculous thing as telling a black he had to become white tells me that this is hardly worthy of comment. I’m giving you the benefit and assuming you failed to comprehend what I ACTUALLY DID SAY.
I did not even mention people with physical defects. Yes, they exist but most homosexuals choose to be homosexuals. Maybe a member of the oposite sex abused them and they have a hatred or discomfort with them. Who knows. tell me, how many homosexuals do you really know that have sexual organ defects? I doubt you really know any. I know one personally and yes, they chose which way felt right and I belive God honors that.
The way you change God’s law to fit your message is Idolatry. you have made your own God to worship who believes as you do. It is written what sin and abomonations are. To say you have decided that they mean something different is very dangerous and leads people away from grace and into condemnation.
Another example of your inability comprehend what you read deals with your paragraph 2. The whole context was dealing with what the gay community has chosen to be their stereotype. If I choose the shock and awe offensive to be seen and heard, I should be prepared to see a lot of my audience turn away. Get it?
PARAGRAPH 3, your argument is so lame I really hate to write this. It is ok for men to remain single. In fact, Paul urges men in ministry not to be distracted by taking a wife unless he must. Why would it be an abomonation for a couple to adopt orphans? That does not even sound like a logical statement. In fact, we are told to look after the orphans and widows.
PARAGRAPH 4, Jesus changed everything my friend. As GOD I think he had the right. You and I? I think we have been commanded not to. Otherwise, I do think you must look at the biblical context of what is said. I have found that sometimes the context might completely render something in the bible irrelevant today because the culture simply no longer exists. That is one thing, but to “decide” that something clearly labeled as sin as no longer being sin becasue we want to accept it into our culture is not acceptable.
This is not hatred. I do not hate homosexuals. I have friends who are homosexuals. They know how I beleive and I know how they believe. They have their choice and I don’t yell at them about it. However, they have at least heard the truth from me and we are friends still. Would we be friends if I got my megaphone out and preached at them from the sidewalk? I don’t think so.
John: How dare you call yourself a loving Christian and then tell any human being that “considering your position, I would expect more knowledge. Know-it-alls are really hard to deal with!
2. Cancelling my illustrations out by ignoring the obvious, the parallelism, is another trick of yours to just simply ignore other people’s opinions and then deal with your own. No one can reason with such a person.Then you project as you cut me down by saying that I don’t get it. That is your parallel snobbery to match the one in the first paragraph. You did not “get” the parallel between your focus on homosexuals and the illustration i gave with blacks and weaseled away by simply saying that you never said anything about blacks. John! We all know you did not, but you don’t get the parallel, so you don’t get it.
70 bodies avenged for one (Lamech), to “an eye for an eye” law was changed by Jesus to “Love your enemies” all three in the Bible as “The Word of God.” No, I did not change the word of God, Children of God did, including Jesus! And the Word of God changes as it progresses all of the time. Any improvement in any field is a change in the inspiration of God to man. God speaks to the scientest just as he does to the preacher. It is the kingdom of God being progressively built, first on this earth and then on other planets as well. You are still back in the first century and trying to get your followers to do the same. You just don’t get it, like you said of me, so it is projecting your own prejudices on me and then letting me be prejudiced for you.
Email me: mpurser@bellsouth.net and I will send you a copy of my book: “God’s Will For Us.”
I don’t charge anyone for it. you have eyes that cannot see, ears that cannot hear, nor do you understand. This book may help you do that enough to debate what I say in the book without snubbing
the author.
There you go with your comprehension defficiency again! What I said was, “from your title (rev) I would expect more knowledge (biblical). Everything you say about the scriptures is refuted by the scriptures themselves, so you MUST change the scriptures to your own interpretation to actually believe what you say. Reading the scriptures as they are written takes your theological teachings out of the picture.
I really hate that a civilized comment has turned into a debate between two Christians; one who adheres to God’s word, and one who believes he can rewrite it to his own meaning. A real shame for sure.
I’m not snubbing you sir but by your own admission you believe that God’s word is “open for editing” through time. It is not true my friend. God’s Word is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Jesus changed a lot. Jesus is God and we are not. So far, the fact that you have a book is not impressive. After all, you have your own bible don’t you?
I love you brother. I’ll be in touch about the book although I need look no further than God himself to find his will for me.
john said: by your own admission you believe that God’s word is “open for editing” through time.
marvin said: yes, it is, edited by God by giving it to man daily. john siad: It is not true my friend.John said: God’s Word is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Jesus changed a lot. Jesus is God and we are not. Marvin said: If God’s Word is the same, and you think jesus is God, then when you say Jesus changed it a lot, then the word did change! John said: So far, the fact that you have a book is not impressive. After all, you have your own bible don’t you? Marvin said: Sarcasm will get you no where with me.
John said: I love you brother.Marvin said: brothers who love one another are not sarcastic, self-righteous, nor would ever tell someone, “Well just because you have a book does not impress me.” In fact, I don’t expect you to be impressed, just to see where I am coming from so that yu can, as I said previously, debate what I say in the book. When you read it, without this narrow minded attitude that before you read it you are not going to be impressed because you read nothing but the Bible, then you can debate its content and not before. “Those who know the Bible and that is all they know, do not know the Bible.john said: I’ll be in touch about the book although I need look no further than God himself to find his will for me. Marvin said: I expect you to find God’s will, when you read it. That is why I wrote it, not to impress your egotistical nature.
It has nothing to do with egotistical nature. I am not the one trying to peddle my version of scripture. That would be egotistical. That would make me trying to be God or to be creating my own god for myself or others. IF I believed Jesus were God? I DO BELIEVE JESUS IS GOD. HE SAID HE WAS and he proved it good enough for me. What Jesus changed deals with law. Like for instance the topic of this discussion implying that people that eat shrimp deserve the same judgement as a homosexual. The dietary laws were abolished by Jesus and replaced by the grace covenant. The same covenant that covers homosexuals. Who knows, if one denies Christ and refuses grace, perhaps they will be judged by the over 600 sin laws! As for me, I choose grace.
My friend, we MUST let the scriptures be our guide. It is the Word of God. When we change it to suit ourselves, it is no longer God’s Word but our words, arranged nicely to give us a comfortable religion we can live with and without any accountability for our sinful choices. Unless we accept God’s Word and repent of our sins, we are lost. I Corinthians 6:9-11 is a warning against the deception that one can live in open rebellion to God’s law and still be a Christian headed for heaven. Just because we decide we are going to say this is ok or that is ok and accept our version will make no difference in the end. God’s Word will stand and we will stand in judgement for our non-repentant hearts who have turned away from our God who has made such an easy way out of condemnation for us.
1 COR 6: 9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
John
Yah Jesus is GOD and the HOLY SPIRIT all THREE in one…….If you do not except that then you arent following my LORD and Savior Jesus CHRIST. You know the part where he rose again on the third day and is by his side …very important stuff. Perversion is perversion way way around it PERIOD THE END…….GOD said be fruitful not fruity. Wrong parts in wrong bodies come on now! Thats outrageuos! Fruitful and multiply! Here is some scripture to back me up.”And God blessed them, and God said unto them,
Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.” King James Version, Genesis 1:28 NOW how can 2 men or 2 women together make a baby…tell me that? Naturaly anyway!!!!!!
It was the same as happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building; but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed. (The Gospel of Luke 17:38–30)(NASB)
I think we should have a straight march….a straight FAMILY march rub it in your face while slobering on each other and waving our flags……..Would that make you happy?
More scripture Leviticus 18:22 (New International Version
22 ” ‘Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
20:13 ” ‘If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. REPENT AND TURN FORM EVIL WAYS!
While listing those who would not inherit the kingdom of God, Paul noted that homosexuals will not be saved: “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God” (I Corinthians 6:9-10, NIV). To further demonstrate that these things are not to be named among Christians Paul continued to say, “And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God” (v. 11).
The Biblical evidence is conclusive that homosexual relations are ungodly, but the case against homosexuality is not limited to the Biblical witness. There is also sound reasons to object homosexuality as an acceptable behavior. Homosexuality is unnatural. Speaking as plainly as I can, all people have “in holes” and “out holes” in their body. Some holes are designed to take things into them, and some holes are designed to rid things from the body. We should not confuse the obvious purpose of these holes. Nature argues against homosexuality as an “alternative” lifestyle.
It also mentions in the BIBLE that if we water it down take out or add too GODS words that we will live every curse in it………Being the redneck that some may say I am anything else besides that I AINT SCARED but that my frined would start worry me.
I love all my brothers and sisters in Christ and have given my life to serving our LORD and Savior reaching lost souls is my life…..I hope to not push you away but only to draw you closer to him thats ALL
All FOR Christ
David P Shepard, Jr
You are doing what most Christians have done over the years, tried to prove the authenticity of the Bible by quoting the book you are trying to prove to be authentic. Choosing Grace implies first the sin.
Homosexuals, such as transexuals, for instance, women born with penises, and male desires rather than women’s, now must first say to themselves that any thought to use their bodies as they were intended to be used (as they were born_)would be a sin because it would not match the Apostle Paul’s teachings to the Corinthian church.
To be a homosexual offender a homosexual would have to offend his homosexuality or to offend those who were not homosexuals by being a homosexual, the way he was born. There is much more to this problem than simply to be an objector to a lifestyle. T”he rest of the list in l Cor 6Z:9 has to do with 1. not being a sexually moral person, which includes any sexual abuse of another person. 3. believing in an idol in place of God. 4. Selling themselves as a sexual object. (any time you deny sex to your wife or husband until a favor is given, is prostitution just as much as if you had handed over $50 a trick.)thieves (includes tax evaders) the greedy (all those who did not give away all they had and follow me (Jesus) nor drunkards (those who can drink more than others have a distinct advantage here. Some can not hold more than one shot of vodka or wine. (Might have happened at the wedding when Jesus turned water into wine and the new wine was better than the first and after everybody had drunk all that was there for the wedding!) slanderers (anyone who says the slightest thing to demean another human being either face to face or to another person, swindlers (anyone who gets the best of another person in a deal, how about the car owner or the buyer, where is the line?. Now, we get all these people washed and none of this ever happens again, right? Wrong. What happens is that those who are “washed in the blood” try to follow Jesus and do what He would do in those situations every day and become a more Christlike person, having respect for all of God’s children because we are all God’s children in the Family of God. Now, God’s family in the old testament included everyone (except when the Hebrews were seeing it) and God, then, according to the Hebrews, one night sent The Destroyer to the Egyptian homes ande cut the head off the first born,
children who were innocent. Doesn’t match what Jesus said: “It is not the will of my Father that anyone of these little ones should perish!” Does not match an unconditionally loving God, not my God, I assure you, no matter what the Hebrew tells me in the Old or the New Testament.
ok you didnt say anything about be fruitful and multiply….guess we are just ignoring that one.
I guess you think we are evolved from a monkey too which is a theory……..
Might help state your case also
so now the argument is what? You worship another GOD? OK then its not about my GOD and we dont have a argument. I really wish you all would stop parading that stuff around in front of my kids. Its hard enough to explain to them that they arent advanced monkeys……..
REV:
It is too bad you refuse to submit to God and accept his Word. until you do, you place yourself in a position of higher than God. You refuse to recognize sin as what is is, sin. Rather than just deal with the isssue of sin, you elude to all your what if’s. You seem to believe that homosexuals are men with vaginas or women with penises. That is a birth defect that is exceedingly rare. Of course the occasional human born with such a birth defect could argue, “I was born this way or this is how God made me”. Unfortunately since Adam, our DNA is degrading (a single case that could disproves evolution which requires a constant improvement in DNA information by natural random mutations).
You have reverend in front of your name but you use the same lame argument as the atheists do by complaining that we use scriptures to substantiate our argument. That is crazy. Of course we are going to use scripture! There is no better deciding factor in the debate. Not only have historians proven most of the new testament but much of the old to be fact. The fact that the bible was written and scrutinized by eye-witnesses to the events is probably the most compelling for believing it is accurate. Furthermore, the bible is the most copied and widely translated document ever written. So important that early Jews and even Jews today are required to commit its text to memory! Yes, I think it is a credible basis of argument sir.
If there will be no acceptance that there is sin, this debate is redundant and meaningless. After all, my original comment was simply dealing with the conditions of forgiveness by grace which are faith and repentance.
John
HOLLA if you HEARD EEEEMMMMMMM…………..NEXT!
u just keep twisting it ok! they choose to be gay..period. If they tried to have relationships with others of the opposite sex, breaking the walls satin has them bound in . They are stuck in satins grasp satins bondage THINK OUTSIDE OF THE BOX DUDE the they could be fruitful They choose do to sick perversion. Dude its obvious the we dont serve the same GOD . I dont know who yours is but it isnt Jesus Christ say what you want too……. I personally think you are trying to appeal to the money per say becuase your cause isnt valid in my eyes…I dont hate! Recognize this fact I dont hate anyone because that only destroys me. I am not budging and you arent either maybe I have planted enough seed the stir something inside of you.
David
FURTHERMORE have a blessed day
Marvin, you have to look at a couple of things here which I believe Mr. Shepard was eluding to.
1. CREATED INTENT OF MAN & WOMAN: God created man in his own image. Male and Female he created THEM. God created male and female for the intent of multiplying. Man was created in his own image as perfect beings with free will that through their love for God, they would glorify Him. We were created at that time genetically perfect. Flawless creations with perfect and pure genes. It is through our original sin that we have defiled ourselves and introduces sin into God’s perfect creation. That one imperfection has spoiled the whole basket so to speak. Now through generations our once perfect genetics have been corrupt and continue to mutate bringin on more and more imperfections. Would anyone argue that regardless of our supreme scientific and biological technology, we are sicker now and battle more diseases and birth defects than ever before? Of course not. Did God make us this way? Of course not! As far as our bodies go, we have willingly doomed ourselves and we cannot fix it no matter how hard we try. God’s will? God’s will once may have been for perfect people to live in the garden forever. I can’t say for certain but I can say for certain that God’s will now is for us as his children, no matter how imperfect and corrupt we have become, to be reconciled to him in eternity. That is why we have a new testament. God made a way for us. It is that simple.
2. God is a holy God; as pure and perfect as light that consumes all darkness. Darkness cannot exist with God. Likewise, our unrighteousness guarantees that we will not be with God either here or in eternity without salvation. Through our faith and repentance, we are reconciled on earth to God as Jesus being our mediator. When we die under grace, we are perfected and returned into God’s presence as we were created in the beginning, pure, perfect, adn righteous.
Make no mistake about it, God did not create us in our current state. We are genetically broken due to our own choosing. Adam did it just like we do it today. We choose sin over God. It is as straight-forward as that. To make us feel better about making such a choice, we just say God does not exist and suddenly we are relieved of our accountability to a holy God that judges sin; not out of vengenace but because he is holy and MUST abolish it from his presence.
No one hates anyone here but we do have an obligation to inform. NOT PUSH OR FORCE anything on anyone. It is not shameful that some do not know the truth. I was such an evil person. My friend, people are in hell today because of my actions and things I helped them do. They died too soon and were lost in the sins we all enjoyed so much. Thank God the day came that someoen took the time to reveal truth to me and I listened. Today I miss nothing I used to enjoy. God is real and has nothing to prove to me. If you look to him he will answer all your questions and you wont need to hear it from anyone else. You will become something new.
John
john:
Every assumption you give is directly from the Bible, a record of the Hebrew people’s perspective of the way God must have, is and will operate in the life of mankind. They practiced the ex posterior argument, asking backwards in time what must have happened, and for instance, answered six questions with the genesis story. Two of them. One: Gen. 2:4b on and the second one in Gen 1, a y ounger more detailed version. Two floods, Hebrew and The Bible is a noble attempt to explain and when anybody makes an attempt to explain against it, one wants to say “Why are you trying to explain away God’s Word?”
But i summit that God has spoken to me as well and I have the freedom and obligation to submit to anyone what I believe that God is telling me, not in some miraculous way, but in the way that God has always intended for man to receive his word, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, “seeking the Kingdom.” I have done that and it has created a progression from what the Bible has always said.
I advocate that when the Bible’s covers were closed, it was the wrong thing to do and God’s Word has always been spoken to mankind, not only through priests who say they are appointed by God, but through every single human being who searches for answers in God’s “world.” God has no favorites to give his Word to and we all receive a Word from him. If you listen for it, you feel blessed by what you find. If you ignore it, you still receive the word to make a car, to make a skyscraper, to find things within a cell, etc.; everything there is has been made available to mankind and Jesus said: “Seek and ye shall find and it will be given to you. I have experienced this and that is why I think the way I do. This is the will of God for me. You do the same and what you experience is the will of God for you. When we communicate our beliefs, a new belief emerges and that is the will of God for us as we perceive it. And I assure you that even then, you will perceive it differently to some degree than I will. I believe that is normal, and is the way that God operates in this world.
Genetics? Then don’t blame those born now for what others did before.
Sicker now? No, just more population. We are living many years longer every year and if you read Futurist” magazine, the prediction is that we will live eventually more than 1,000 years apiece. We will not do that until we need the years to move on longer trips to other planets. it is the perfect way that God continues to progress through mankind in His Kingdom. Earlier stories of Methusaleh and the like were people who were counting years without calendars and by quarter moons.
The bones of man found by man since show a progression in age from childhood to about 40 real years. The calendar itself has progressed. August and Julius Caesar added their names and made two more months. Before that, only ten months in years from the time the calendars were started to count years.
david:
“think outside the box” and stop believing in Satan. When you make one the God of Good and one the God of Bad, you start believing in two Gods, the God of evil and the God of Good. “Thou shalt have no other Gods before me, saith the Lord. (Of course, the Hebrew priest said this for the first time and everybody bought it. An unconditionally loving God whose will is that not one of my little ones shall perish” is a God who always forgives and is not gooing to send anyone to everlasting hell fire and brimstone. Hell in the Old Testament and the New was Gehenna, just outside the gates of Jerusalem. Other towns also had their Gehenna. It was where they dumped the bodies of the poor who could not afford a sepulcher. Jesus was given His by Peter because He was also poor, owned nothing. When Jesus said: Leave the dead to bury the dead,” he was reminding them of Gehenna, where bodies were piled on top of each other and literally one buried the other as time went by. Evil is the absence of God, so denial of the Holy Spirit makes you living without the presence of God in your life and so you are alive, but dead as you breath without the breath of God. Spirit: Spiritus in Latin: to breathe. Capitalize it and it is God’s Breath. ”
God breathed into man the breath of life: Genesis. (Hebrew’s belief of how mankind arrived in the world. Not my belief. I am an evolutionist, but not a Darwinian. Darwin was a thesis to an anti thesis. There is still a synthesis to come to those two theories.
it took you quite some time to look up your response sir. Welcome back.
Firstly, by basing my statements on the bible, these are not assumptions. If on the other hand I based my statements on, let’s say, your book which is your ideals, that would be my assumption basis. By looking to the scriptures, I have the benefit of eye-witness testimony to the facts. To combine those with archaeological supporting facts of modern science which ensures I have a case for my beliefs with reason for believing and not just becasue i think so.
We are told that all scripture is good for among other things, correction and knowledge. Yes, indeed God does still speaks and does so confirming the truth of his Word, not to contradict it.
We once lived hundreds of years. HUNDREDS OF YEARS my friend. we began losing those years. Yes, through hard lives our life-spans did deminish to a low point but we now live aboout 70 years and that varies a bit of course depending on how we spend those years. Believe me, we will never explore distant galaxies or migrate to new planets.
But genetics are completely the blame of us my friend and yes, it is written sons and daugters will suffer because of the sins of the Fathers. Why rewrite it to suit yourself? It is written and also it is come. You should say, Don’t blame God for what we are doing. It is not over. We are still in the same condition. We CHOOSE sin over repentance therefore, we choose to be seperated from God.
John
john: which scriptures do you want to use to substantiate your claims:
1. If Cain is avenged 7 tinmes, truly Lamach 77 times
2. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.
3. Forgive 70×7.
all three were the Word of God. You follow one, you will to remove the other two.
But God is perfect, therefore avenging 77 times was okay for God for awhile.
But God is perfect, therefore an eye for an eye was okay for God for awhile.
But God is perfect, therefore forgiving 70×7 was okay since then.
But God is perfect, so if you sin in India and have not heard from Jesus, you are
going straight to hell by a God who does not practice what he preaches, to forgive
70×7.
But God is perfect, so if you ask him to forgive you 90% of the time, are you going straight to hell because you let 10% of your sins go by?
but God is perfect, but Christ only came to those who heard him, understood him. How about all those who had eyes,, but could not see, ears, but could not hear, nor did they understand? Jesus asked from the cross: “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.”
If Jesus is God, why did he ask himself from the cross and address Himself as Father when he said
previously: Why dost thou call me Good,, there is no one good except the Father in Heaven! That makes Jesus not so good,, and God good and God not Jesus!
I made no reference of the devil being a GOD you did. Dont twist my words to meat your purpose. I am glad I am not a mindless drone because it would take that to believe what the crap u r spitting……..There is a devil thats for sure! I dont serve him though. Any who….Topic of this blog is Why do Christians hate Homosexuals…Like I said before HATE is a tool of the Satin! Satin is NOT a GOD to Christians! If we Let hate get in us we get like him. We simply dont agree with your theories, monkey, your view of GOD is not ours……….May GOD have mercy on your souls.
Pastor David P Shepard, Jr
Your words are not even theology, just sarcasm like you accused me of earlier.
Yes, God is perfect and his law is perfect. We are the ones who are defiled and we have chosen to be.
Forgiveness is the current law. We are told to forgive and that God will judge sin. We do not judge but we are called to speak truth against sin.
Absolutely an eye for an eye was ok for a while according to God’s Word.
Surely a learned theologian like you does not need a street minister like me to explain the diety of Christ to you. Are you mocking me? Shall I entertain you here? I find this quite silly but for the benefit of taking your questions as legitimate, I will humor you my friend.
God does not forgive 90% of the time. You are adopted into the Kingdom but one time for all time. IF you truly come to faith and repentance and are born again, you are saved. You are purchased with a price and nothing can reverse that. Your children can never become unborn. you can’t send them back. Likewise, once you are are born again as a child of God, you are his and you are redeemed. Yes, you will sin again except sin will not control your life and sin will not have the same pleasure it once had. Even though you sin again, you are already forgiven. This is not a license to sin.
We were born with some degree of spirituality that makes us seek God in some way. If one seeks God but never heard of Jesus for whatever reason, he still has faith although he has lacked knowledge of truth. I wish I had a more eloquent answer but I have to believe that God has a perfect plan for that circumstance. He is God.
Jesus is God in human form. Also called God’s Son as he was born by a woman with no human father. The holy trinity consists of God the Father, God the Son, and God the holy spirit. All 3 of which are God individually and collectively. It is not odd at all that Jesus called out saying father forgive them for they know not what they do. Why did you not ask why Jesus would cry out MY GOD WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME? Now, this will really blow your mind my friend;
In biblical times the bible was not broken down into chapters and verses as it is today. Also, without printing presses and a bible on every table we used to know the scriptures word for word. Not having a chapter or verse to refference to people we would simply recite the first sentence and everyone would know the scripture we were refferencing. When Jesus cried out on the cross, he was litterally saying “Psalm 22″! He was pointing out fulfilment of the prophesy written over 1500 years before the Crucifixion event. Written at a time when Crucifixion had not even been invented! Psalm 22 is a graphic depiction of Jesus’ Crucifixion. When he cried out, MY GOD WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME! Everyone knew that prophesy had come to pass before their very eyes.
He was not being addressed at the time as God or the Mesiah. he was being addressed as a teacher. Jesus was prodding, WHY do you call me good?
David: I did not say you did refer to Satan. I said you believe in him as the ‘god of Evil. Test: just let the Devil go to hell!
Then never mention him again, only “think on these things” as the
Apostle Paul told the church. Whatever is honorable…….Remember?
I bet you cannot believe only in God, never mention the devil in the pulpit again and then teach people to be Christian to one another.
you have to scare them out of hell instead, right?
God has progressed in the minds of man to where you do not have to do that any mo re. Remember that the Bible is a smorgasbord of beliefs and preachers choose what they want to teach their congregations. Example: why don’t you insist that all women cover their heads when they are in church. Paul of “Tarsus instructed the church to do that! It now is in “The Word of God,” cannot be changed, one iota. In the New TGestament too! That’s the New Covenaant, right? Yet, you leave it alone, don’t you. So you do take some freedom with what you teach from the scriptures. There are hundreds of these throughout the Bible, belliefs of Hebrews which we do not believe or practice today even though the Hebrew believed it to be God’s word for any man woman or child who chose to be a child of God.
Come on now Marvin. If there is one point you’ve made that is deserving of any credence it is that we do have to look at the scriptures in context of culture. Why in the world would we enforce something that is culturally irrelevant to us? In some areas, I’m sure that is still relevant and practiced. That is not picking and choosing. That deals with culture and not doctrine having any relevance to grace, sin or salvation.
I’m about to abandon this thread. Your arguments are making a mess of things and are becoming quite silly. I love you my friend but this is getting redundant and your backlashes are spinning out of control.
As for Satan, he is a powerful adn created being and you better recognize that. It is written that we don’t fight against each other but against spiritual beings in high places. Satan is alive and well. If you are not aware of his presence, I can reasonably expect that you are comfortably where he wants you.
I was not mocking. You are being judgmental. My theology is after I read all the others in Seminary wasting my time reading through the centuries from people who contemplated their navels.
I also read ll9 graduate theses from my seminary, all of them until I finished the last one. Found nothing in them that I would want to share with another.
To say that one law is the “current law” makes a previous Word of God changeable.
God did not change it except through the thought processes of mankind.
It was meant to work that way, hence 77 for one, eye for an eye and forgiving 70×7 is a progression of relationships between one and his enemy.
It is the progressive revelation of God given to man as he is willing and able to receive it.
Still: eye for eye never was okay with God! Imagine all the children of God
Sitting around Jesus and he telling them: Now, children, remember, when someone does something to you, do it back equally, an eye for an eye.
Now put that scene in the very first 100 years of man’s existence.
And you really believe that would have been ok with God? Puhleeeeeeeze!
we are the ones moving toward perfection, not God! He always was as He was,
never violent, never eye for an eye, never revengeful as the Old Testament writers believed
(Don’t try to prove me different with the hebrews beliefs in The Book. I know them all)
listen to God telling you today: Get with the Program, not the program of the Hebrew people in the first 1,000 years of man’s existence. why haven’t you also listen to the word of God in the Muslim faith or the Indian faith. I spoke to them down through the centuries also! And they are progressing from where they started just like your people have. I have spoken since! to all of you! And I speak to you now. You can think better than they did. Start thinking!
i forgot to tell you i am going to bed now. I am 72 and tired, gave a lot of time to this was great while i sit in hurricane weather down here in Hollywood fl. I will get back to all of you when I can. Thanks for the debate.
but these are YOUR WORDS and just because YOU say so has no bearing on what GOD says. I will say that man did not change law, except where they threw them in for their own cause, but God did. God made the way so simply through Jesus. Why do we have to make our own cults that say there is no sin and we are free to live however we choose without judgement? The ONLY way to God is through Jesus. If you beleive any other way, you ahve been deceived. All we have to do is read the Word to find all the answers to our questions. There is no need for fabrication.
Good night Marvin. We seem to be at a stalemate my friend. I enjoyed the day and pray passersby will benefit from our debate. Peace and blessings to you sir. May the Lord keep you, your home and family safe from all harm of the hurricane coming in. Let us know how things turned out for you there.
John
JOHN:
THE BIBLE: But these are the Hebrews Words”
your beliefs: butthese are your words
my beliefs: But these are my words.
Koran: but these area their words.
Science book: But these are their words.
Math book: But these area their words.
bottom line: these all are The Words of God given to man as much as he is willing and able to receive as he seeks the truth in The Kingdom of God, which is as Jesus said: “At hand” on your finger tips. You are in The Kingdom of God searching for whatever he has placed here for you and me. “seek and ye shall find” thanks John for the prayer. i am beginning to like you. Might even stay with lower case just for you. (Hope i don’t forget).
First off, about 2/3rds of the way through, this topic stopped being a debate and became a squabble. Seriously, if you can’t control yourself, don’t say anything, you will just embarrass yourselves.
A true debate is one where each party argues their cause with respect for the others beliefs, and to present their case without being offensive.
It caused me pain to read some of the comments here, and I skipped the latter part of the argument (read: fight) because it was fairly degrading.
I do not believe in the trinity, I have never seen anything to provoke this, and have seen plenty of evidence against it. Therefore to me, its ridiculous.
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God tells you to LOVE everyone. So where do you get the idea that religion is full of raw hatred, and those believers are maniacs who are steps away from eating our children. Run for the hills. Rawr! *bite*.
The Bible does not prohibit Love between men, it encourages it. What it prohibits is SEXUAL ACTS between men (or between women, or with animals). It tells you to kill off the offenders also, but, Jesus later says (albeit indirectly) to leave judging and punishing TO THOSE WITHOUT SIN THEMSELVES (Not people). The reason for prohibiting these sexual acts, (for me, its because I find it disgusting, but hey) would be because the Bible reserves sex as something between a man and a woman ONLY in a family, for strengthening the relationship, or for gods command to mankind- To fill the earth and subdue it.
Jesus was a nice guy. So isn’t it strange that, since he is the representation of the perfect Christian, he didn’t go around spouting fire and brimstone and hating everyone? (and eating children). They say you should lead by example. He led by example. Pay attention to that.
Furthermore, ALL the ‘atheists’ I have met, have insisted that anyone believing in anything other then nothing (atheism?) are being deceived/controlled/manipulated or are just idiots.
In a question of first impressions, I’d rather talk to Jesus, then an ‘atheist’. If there are atheists reading this who feel offended, my apologies, talk to your peers and tell them to clean up their act, or you’ll be stuck with this stereotype for a long time.
Although, some ‘Christians’ leave less then favorable first impressions (I’m looking at you, ‘rev marvin e purser jr’) the Christians I know personally, are all fantastic people who work hard for what they believe, and are far from the stereotypes mentioned here.
Contradictory to common belief, Christians are not supposed to force anyone to believe anything, its more a question of ‘leading a horse to water’, we try are best to do that, but the choice is ultimately yours. Free Will is Gods gift to us after all, it would be fairly stupid to tell his follows to act in the opposite way wouldn’t it?
God isn’t unfair, evil, or mean. As a lover of Justice (this is mentioned MANY times in the Bible) by default, the existence of God overrides people saying that God will punish all who don’t follow him on a whim. God wants all to follow him of THEIR OWN WILL. Therefore, he is a really nice guy too, so punishments for silly reasons belong to the false religious leaders which have appeared in the Bible as evil men, and still exist to an extent today. As to why God doesn’t stop natural disasters (a common theme on this… website?), there are many reasons largely due to the guy described below. Besides, the natural disasters labeled as ‘acts of God’ and blamed on him by even atheists, makes no sense. Since ALL of these disasters have been explained by science for a looong time.
As it seems to be a problem case, I’ll provide what I know on the rather controversial subject of Satan/Devil/(name of choice here).
Naturally, if you don’t want to accept the existence of God, you probably wont want to for Satan either.
According to the Bible (since no-other book references the origins of the Devil according to Christianity) Satan was once an Angel, who got jealous of Gods Creation on earth, and developed a mean streak. After the events at the Garden of Eden, there was a war in heaven between Satans followers, and God and his followers. Satan lost, and was booted onto earth with his followers (renamed from Angels to Demons).
The date of the Devils coming was 1914 (mistakenly believed to be the end of the world by some Christians of the time), interestingly enough though, that was the date of the beginning of the First World War.
To cut a long story short, the Devil embodies the opposite of God, so if God is infinitely Good and Just, the Devil is infinitely evil and unjust. You get the idea.
Feel free to continue debating over E-mail, or just to flame badly if you have no shame, at Littleman_5000@hotmail.com (don’t spam please). If you want to talk about Manga (yay) or Anime (almost as good), feel free to do so also.
Also if I missed anything (probably did…) POLITELY point it out, and I will do my best to answer.
I enjoy a good DEBATE, but detest fights, arguments, and petty squabbles. Come if you dare. Mwuha.
Fare thee well.
World Class Fool,
great nick by the way. That’s me too. I can only speak for myself, but I only spoke here intent on speaking against hate by Christians. I personally don’t hate anyone for a particular sin in their life. Aren’t we all sinners and don’t we all fall short? I know I do. I don’t really see where we were “fighting”. Just a couple of people firm in their beliefs making their points. I’ve talked to the Rev. Marvin Purser quite a bit since off of this blog and I assure you, we mutually respect each other’s views. Neither of us encourages hatred. We may get a little heated but that is an acceptable element of the process in my opinion.
I appreciate your views too and you make some great points. I think you may have mistaken the spirit of our argument. We’re all grinnin’; even the homosexuals who made the original complaint.
John
ditto on John.
Debate is Thesis, antithesis, then synthesis. Synthesis on any debate is “a truth,” not “The Truth.” All “a truths” progress through past present and future. That is “The Way.”
The Truth is everything that was ever said or thought about any one subject. In it are all the “a truths.” What we live with in our day is a knowledge of all the “a truths” that have progressed up until we are here. Our living with that is The Life.
When you give your creator credit for all of these “a truths,” then you become a part of The Life With God.
When you only give mankind credit, then you still become apart of The Life and Without a knowledge of God’s Presence in yours or anybody’s life.
The choice is your free will given to you by the creator.
God is not a pushy guy.
Whichever decisions you make, He loves you anyway because you are his child in The Family of God, all equal, no matter what your choices are.
Was Jesus a religious bigot when he said:
“Neither is there salvation in any other. For there is no other name under Heaven whereby we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12)
“I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man cometh to the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6)
Mitchell: Jesus was a Jew. the bigotry of the Jews was challenged by Jesus and so there was no such thing as a not-neighbor, as he illustrated in the parable of the good Samaritan. So, for the second statement you quote, no matter what religion you preach from, God is there in Christ and it is in Christ that you are saved, and not from hell, but from whatever separates you from another child of God in the Family of God. Therefore, whatever separates a child of God from the way, the truth and the life is someone who continues to live outside of the way, with what is untrue, and which is devoid of the life he is preaching about. There was not then and there never has been since any message which comes close to that which Jesus preached, so it makes sense to believe that until that happens, no one can come to the Father esdept through the message of Jesus about the Christ which is in all people, every man, woman and child regardless of his religion. All of us are children of God and as such, are full of the Holy Spirit. Not in touch with that Holy Spirit within any person is separation from God and a person who is separated from God needs to be saved from being separated from God so that he accepts the Christ that is already within him. He was born with the Holy Spirit within, and to be born again is to recognize the Holy Spirit which, while already within, has not been made known to him or her.
In reply to MITCHELL but I have to say hello to Marvin. I do hope you are well.
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mitchell,
Jesus certainly was not a biggot and he especially was not religious! Jesus hated religion and we should also for what it has done to our faith.
I suppose people must have really had a hard time with Jesus and who he said he was. People still have their problems with that. Listen to Oprah telling her cult there are thousands of ways to God and all gods are the same in the end. That is just convenient religion that allows us to just do as we want and believe we will be eternally with God.
In the end, with their being ONE GOD, I wonder if he will tell Oprah to go to one of those other gods instead when her life is over? How insulting that must be to our Creator.
john
Throwing words loosely around like “cult” which implies a group led by a narcissist is offensive to me when applied to Oprah. Judge not lest ye be not judged with the same judgment with with ye judge.” I suppose the Bill Gates has a cult too? Oh, but he is white, isn’t he. Both give millions away to help this world. And neither favor any particular group or “cult.”
oprah means in this reference to God the same thing Shakespeare meant when he said: “What’s in a name, that which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet. Your God and Allah are the same God. They are both “The Creator.” A concrete idol and a picture of Jesus on the wall is the same act when they both refer to “God’ or any name for God, the Creator of all things.
Marvin,
You and I know each other’s heart. You know I did not intend to offend anyone. Please do not incinuate that I am racist. I do not uplift Bill Gates in any way and have never even mentioned his name. I am thankful for all good people do. likewise, I do not condemn Oprah in any way. I merely call out her teachings. Some people should just stick to what brought them success and not try to create their own religion based on that prior success. Oprah has done much good in this world with her generocity and I do love Oprah as a neighbor in this world. It is her use of her platform to mislead people that I have a problem with. The fact that she is a black woman certainly makes no difference to me. She could be green or pink or white for all I care. I think you know me well enough to know my motivation is strictly biblical.
In fact Oprah wants to make people beleive that it does not matter what your name for God is becasue it will be ok. The scriptures do not say that. It is ironic that Oprah recalls her time of enlightenment as being when she heard “God is a jealous God” and she chose to believe that was wrong to her, then she stopped believing in God. What she missed in that was the message that there is one true God and worshipping other gods is not leading us to the same place. It will lead us to eternal sepperation from the one true God. The scriptures are clear in that. When you stand up and lead millions of people to believe that THEY ARE GOD and we all are god, I consider that a cult. I concede my deffinition may be loose of occult but the danger in it is the same.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgKIkruHZko
Blessings & Peace
John
JOHN:
ALL THE NAMES ATTRIBUTED TO GOD THROUGH HISTORY ARE NAMES “FOR” GOD. THIS STARTED IN OLD TESTAMENT TIMES WHEN NO ONE WAS ALLOWED TO CALL OUT THE NAME OF GOD OR ELSE HE WOULD DIE. SO THE HIGH PRIEST OF THE TRIBE OF AARON WOULD CALL GOD’S NAME ONE TIME A YEAR. WHEN HE DID, HE WAS NOT ALLOWED TO HEAR HIS OWN VOICE. SO A RAM’S HORN WAS BLOWN INTO HIS EAR AS HE CALLED GOD’S NAME, SO THAT THE PRIEST WOULD NOT HEAR IT LEST HE DIE.
WHEN WRITING, ONLY THE LETTERS YHWH WERE ALLOWED, NOT YAHWEH, BASICALLY FOR THE SAME REASON, SO NO ONE WOULD SEE THE NAME OF GOD. PURE SUPERSTITION OF THE FEAR OF GOD, BUT THEY DID IT. ALL THE OTHER NAMES, SUCH AS JEHOVAH AND ALLAH, WHATEVER GOD IS CALLED BY ANYONE IN ANY LAND TODAY ARE NAMES “FOR” GOD.
GOD HAS NO HANGUP WITH ANY WAY IN WHICH MAN WISHES TO EXPRESS HIS FAITH ABOUT HIM. HE DOES NOT NEED THE ATTENTION. MAN NEEDS TO MAKE HIM HIS PRIORITY. GOD HAS NO EGO TRIP ABOUT ANYTHING. MAN USUALLY DOES. GOD DOES NOT NEED US TO LOVE HIM. MAN NEEDS TO LOVE HIM.
GOD DOES NOT NEED MAN TO BUILD HIS KINGDOM. THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS GIVEN TO MAN BECAUSE MAN NEEDS SOMETHING TO DO AND TO ENJOY WHEN HE GETS IT DONE PROGRESSIVELY AND FOREVER. IT IS A GIFT FROM GOD TO MAN, UNCONDITIONALLY GIVEN WITH NO HANDS BUT OURS TO DO HIS WILL. WE DON’T DO GOD’S WILL BECAUSE GOD NEEDS US TO DO IT. WE DO IT BECAUSE IT IS THE WAY GOD HAS DESIGNED FOR MAN TO BE FULFILLED.
WHENEVER MAN FEELS THAT GOD NEEDS ANY OF OUR EMOTIONS, OR ANY OF OUR GIFTS AT THE ALTAR, MAN’S GOD IS TOO SMALL. WHEN MAN REALIZES THAT EVERY EXPRESSION HE USES TO SHOW HIS FAITH IN GOD IS HIS OWN NEED AND NOT ONE GOD NEEDS, GOD BECOME MUCH LARGER IN THE EYES OF MAN.
LOOK AT THE BIBLE AS A PROGRESSIVE RECORD OF MAN’S LEARNING THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD AND YOU WILL FEEL FREE TO UNDERSTAND, WITHOUT THE GUILT THAT YOU MIGHT BE DISOBEYING THE WORD OF GOD AS RECORDED IN THE BIBLE. YOU WILL SEE THE BIBLE AS A RECORD OF MAN LEARNING HOW GOD OPERATES IN THE WORLD. THE LEARNING IS A STEP BY STEP PROCESS THROUGH THE CENTURIES.
PLEASING GOD IS NOT A NEED OF GOD. IT IS A NEED OF MAN.
The issue raised that I was defending was with that which incinuated I was being racisr in my criticism of Oprah who was not speaking in the context you are here. In response to Jesus being the way we are reconciled to God, Oprah said, “there are thousands of ways, there absolutely can’t be just one way”.
If the way was our choice or if God made us the way, there would be no cause for the Mesiah to come and save us from our sins. Just the fact Jesus was is indicative that we needed a savior. Rev. Purser, surely you will not say that Jesus was not. That does not casue a follower to be filled with a guilty spirit trying to please God. I believe God is already pleased with us. We are after all, His creation. Once we see that we have made a choice to deny God and cling to sin, I mean once we feel that unharmonious state between us and God, we realize what we must do. That is to repent or turn away from our sins and turn back to God who does love us and when we understand Jesus has bore the burden for our defiance, we can be free from it. If one feels guilt or a need to make up for it, they truly don’t understand the work of the cross.
That is the way we are reconciled to God. It makes no difference if your name for the creator is still the creator. That is not the point and is not what oprah was saying. It does matter when you choose to believe that Jesus has no place in the process. Without Jesus, nothing we believed or did will matter because we will be accountable for ourselves instead of free from Judgement through the sacrifice of Jesus.
Again, I love Oprah dearly. I used to watch her shows quite often and enjoyed them a lot. I just fear that she has exploited that popularity and is now abusing her podium to lead millions astray just because it sounds good to her and frees her from her own brokenness. Praise God for Oprah’s generosity and compassion. Many people live better because of it. However, leading people away from Grace is not improving their lives. Oprah cannot complete their spirit man by giving them things. Imagine what improvement to lives if Oprah stood up and shared the gospel with her millions of followers. What if she led them to Jesus and they suddenly realized that it was no longer about how good they could be but how good Jesus was for us? That would be amazing.
Thanks Marvin. You know I love you and don’t mean any offense to you. I just want to be clear on what Oprah said so you can understand my problem with it has nothing to do with race or sex.
John
John G said:
“In response to Jesus being the way we are reconciled to God, Oprah said, ‘there are thousands of ways, there absolutely can’t be just one way.’”
Billions on up, John, throughout the eternal future.
Every man, woman and child arrives at the threshold of his own understanding of how God operates in His world with man. The Bible records only a few and those were taken from several hundred. Some one or a group, such as the Council of Nicea, took it upon themselves to make those choices. The Bishop of Hieropolis chose 27 books for the New Testament amidst thousands of writings during the 40-120 years after Jesus left. Most of those thousands mythologized Him, having him do all sorts of miracles which he never performed. Some even wrote about his childhood, killing birds to prove his power in front of his peers. The Catholics usually have these books between the testaments most protestants do not.
The point is that humans chose what the Word of God was going to be and what it was not going to be and gathered it together and made the Bible. I imagine that the same thing held true when
All the laws were decided for scriptures. Not all of them made it to publication. And that was after memory only for years until the l5OO’s when the printing press came.
When King James ordered a version, David and Goliath showed up with Elhanna and Goliath, both men killing the Giant “whose shew was alike a weaver’s beam. (see 2nd Samuel 21:19, Elhanna did it too.)