Great posts.
I was raised catholic but have been an atheist for many years.

The following question has always been on my mind:
If God is so powerful, sublime… then why is there such misery on earth?
For example: Why are there kids being abused? Women beaten to death? Kids born deformed?

I understand that humans are responsible for their actions. But already at birth, there seems to
be so much injustice and inequality. Why would a “good” god make this happen?

Peter.

Stop believe in those miracles and absurd things that is write on the bible.

Life and death is what we have and that’s it.Live your life and try to be good and smart to survive.

But you are not the only one.There’s belivers all around the world.many believes in other gods and blablabla.

World will be this way till you die.

Thanks for writing this because it makes me feel less alone. I too have had the same viewpoints on many of those you wrote. ESPECIALLY #1

I grew up Catholic and went to Sunday School. My family was really pissed when they found out I stopped going to church and didn’t take my kids to church either. I explained to them that I have my own ideas about what (a) God is and that I wasn’t going to EVER share my viewpoints/ideas with them until they had an open and accepting mind/heart.

Once again thanks for writing this.

–Cheers

Im not a believer in a higher power. My parents and their parents are my ‘Gods’ - they created me - if it wasn’t for them, I wouldn’t be here.
I can understand why people believe in something - I have the same sensation of feeling a little lost, with a mountain of questions that can’t be answered. It would be nice for an event or for someone or thing to tell me the ‘truth of everything’ which would provide hope and belief, but it’s not going to happen.

Like everything that has existed, there is a beginning and an end. So my personal belief is, that by showing people not to be afraid of the end and death eg.(think of all the people that have ever lived that have faced death, if they have done it, why can’t I), is the key to a successful life.

James.

all those reasons really reflect back to self-worship… people naturally are self-serving… taking care of themselves comes much easier than denying their natural wants or needs in order to serve or love someone else.

people may believe in “god” because of the reasons you listed. however if we’re dealing with the Christian God…who sent his son Jesus Christ as the atonement for sins… then your reasons may be what propels a person to acknowledge God

but full-fledged belief, in the sense of giving one’s life to Jesus Christ, is indeed the most satisfying and fulfilling choice a person could likely ever make… however, it also means surrendering much “comfort” …Jesus calls his followers to “leave everything” and follow him. True Christians are brutally murdered for sharing their faith. They experience rejection and hate. They are not shielded from the pain of the world…they suffer the death of children and parents. they fight cancer… In the Bible Job is stripped of his family, land, health, and friends…yet Job will not deny God no matter how horrible things get. There are examples of people like Job today.

steadfast belief in God can not be merely surmised as convenient…for following Jesus Christ is a joy and is wonderful and a privledge but not convenient…

therefore why do people believe in god? …they believe in the gods of many religions perhaps for the reasons you listed…

Why do people believe in the God of the Bible? …i’d challenge YOU to read the Bible and find out. I’d suggest beginning in the New Testament…start in the gospels, maybe John…then read Romans…and before you read those books i’d suggest you pray “God, if you’re real..show yourself” before you begin.

The answer is worth discovering. People lay down their lives because of it.

Why does everyone believe christianity is religion?

It is only religion if we make it so but reality is its a faith in god with free choices to be made for our own lives not to be made by others.

Its about time we looked at it in the aspect of do we believe we have freedom of choice or are we gonna foloow man made rules and regulations

Mostly the religions repeat moral values that are good… and a lot that are also horrible.
Literature is literature, it can be fiction. Art is art and for the most part it is subjective as to weather or not it is “good” art. So I don’t see what you can LEARN from it.
History teaches us what’s happened before. We can learn via example. When it comes to the history of religion, you see SO many different religions, mostly all saying the same things, argueing and sometimes having WARS over the specifications of each “different” religion. All DO say that there is a God, something they can’t prove in the first place.

Personally, I can’t teach you anything. I’m not an expert in science, OR religion.
I don’t think anybody can explain the “beginning”. If I said big bang, you may very well ask me to explain that, but not having an explanation for the universe gives no weight to the existance of God.

[quote post="150"]What natural thing could the world’s various religions (and science) all be pointing too and be calling God, Nirvana, etc…?[/quote]

The universe itself? I don’t know. Science to me is just pointing toward the comfort of humanity. More space travel, more organ replacement… I don’t see anything having to do with God or Nirvana when it comes to science. Religions themselves are pointing towards God, something in which I no longer believe.

I have recently re-read my posts and have found in them the same quality that I abhor in many of the posts that I reply to. I feel compelled to apologize for my hostility.

You see, I too, dislike mental laziness, but see it in a different light than others, including many of you. I would whole-heartedly agree that the majority of people accept the understanding that has been handed them without much of a second thought. That is very, very sad.

However, I am also of the opinion that there is often wisdom and truth in the places that we deem most unlikely. We should carefully consider the strengths and weaknesses of our systems as we choose them. To summarily throw out thousands of years of human understanding because it doesn’t fit our model MAY be the ultimate in human ignorance.

For example, Buddhism is supposed to be a belief which you prove to yourself. On this premise each participant has performed a number of “studies” that have led them to their beliefs. While they cannot show proof of their beliefs to you, generations of followers have come to the same conclusions and you are welcome to try the experiment(s) out for yourself.

In Contrast, the scientific method is based solely on what can be observed with our own senses and seldom makes room for logical deduction if it can in no way be tested but makes complete sense based on all the evidence to date.

In other words, in our search toward truth and reality it makes little sense to spend time attacking the views of another unless we are trying to understand what value they may hold for us. If that is the question we are asking then we should honestly ask it and, sooner or later, someone will honestly answer it.

So, you can learn much from science but, what can you learn from the worlds religions, literature, art and history? In short, what can the thousands of years of human history teach you and point you toward?

Then, when you put these things together, it becomes a matter of probability, not concrete fact. At least, that’s where it starts, in my opinion.

So, what can you teach me? That is the question.

Why do I believe in a “God”? Well, do you have any other explanation for the beginning? Not for the change/evolution but, for the beginning? By the way, I probably don’t picture God like you think I do.

Another question. What natural thing could the world’s various religions (and science) all be pointing too and be calling God, Nirvana, etc…?

I can see your point about making a better life for your children. That is love. God is love.

Through my own experience, you can throw any religion aside and say that the purpose of ones life is to make a better life for your children.

This is universal. Every human,(Almost) of every race, on every continent, of every religion, has this same goal throughout life. Hell, throughout the existance of living things.

You can track this back, because EVERY mamal looks for a suitable courter. Animals refuse to mate with diseased animals.

Animals we are, but intelect we have…

I’m by no means saying that logical is illogical. The use of logic alone to try and understand the base reality, especially when people on either side so quickly write off any evidence to the contrary, is illogical.

One last comment, for the original author, you said: “You feel that your faith in something greater than yourself gives your life purpose and meaning.” Tell me, if there is no power greater than us, nothing but what we see, what is the purpose of life? Now, if you are going to say “the purpose of life is life itself” then I ask you for other examples where the purpose of something is itself. You know, “The purpose of phone is phone itself” or “the purpose of blog is blog itself”. I can’t think of any. It would be a more logical argument to say that there is no evidence to support the belief that life has to have a purpose. But, if you believe that then why do you banter on about the beliefs of others? I mean, other than to feel superior (there goes that logical ego thing again).

Yes, logic in itself is not based on emotion. That being said, what most people around here are trying to pass as logic is simply an attempt at making their own beliefs seem sound and well developed. In fact, I am more than willing to bet that you are correct - most of the logic driven people around here immediately throw logic out when its time to make their opinion of themselves and others, especially where intellect is concerned.

TXStorm,

Yes, of course you are right! I have no understanding of logic or reason though I continue to make my living through those very tools each and every day. If you were being logical and not ego-driven the first statement of your post would never have come to be. Therefore, you prove the ego-nature through your actions.

I agree with what you meant by “reality is the final arbitrary of truth”. Yes, it is simple to agree that truth is truth, reality is reality and what is is. So the second part of your second sentence holds as obvious. As for ego in religion, if what you are referring to is ego in a practitioner and/or the “ego” of organized religion I would agree that it does in fact exist. In fact, I would say those very qualities are some of the ones a true disciple (of practically any faith) should be working to get rid of. We would have to examine whether or not those ego qualities are appropriate if one were to really base their life on the original moral teachings that began the religion.

My religious beliefs do not put me on a pedestal and your logic cannot show that my beliefs make me more than I, in fact, am. My beliefs can easily be changed through evidence. However, I probably require a greater degree of evidence than you. For example, just because mice and flies can be found in and around bags of grain I will not believe they come from grain even though this kind of belief was common at one point and completely fitting for the logic of the time.

“Since the errors are so clear in your claims about science, there is little need to go through them one by one.” No, please do. Whenever you’re ready I am ready to learn.

[quote comment="7598"]You have another factual error which needs addressing. You assume that religion was started to understand reality, but of course not only is this not true it cannot be true. COnsider that religion in no way deals with reality, but rather engages in pure fantasy and fiction.[/quote]

You think I assume that it was started to understand reality but I make no such assumption. At the root of EVERY religion in the world is an attempt to understand/explain reality. I do realize that this purpose has been lost on most “religious” people but it is in fact the reason it they were begun. I also realize that organized religions have used their power to control people and manipulate things but such behavior is contrary to the root of the teachings. If you think not then ask yourself this: what was in it for Siddhartha (Buddha), Jesus of Nazareth or Muhammad?

[quote comment="7598"]As for what you strangely refer to as a “belief” in logic, to examine whether this works compare it to reality. In EVERY instance you will find that in fact logic works. The reason for this? Because logic is merely the tool we use to describe reality.[/quote]

No, you will find that logic works to your satisfaction. I will find that my perceptive capabilities are always limiting my ability to perceive truth. For instance, in my last college level organic chemistry class the teacher said “when mixture A is combined with mixture B the particles will mix randomly”. However, in my first college level physics class we were taught “all objects exert a force on all other objects”. If I am watching these chemicals mix then I am exerting a force, I am part of an equation I cannot understand through science and I cannot logically conclude that the particles mix randomly. To say it is random is a farce, to use your perception of it as proof is a farce.

Or, maybe a more simple example. What I say is almost never what another person hears. They hear what they thought I meant as it has been filtered through their past experiences. Now let me ask you, from a logical perspective, if I say X meaning X but your hear X meaning Y and we don’t clear up the confusino whose reality of what just happened during that conversation is correct? Lets compare answers over the next few posts.

One last thing. Please don’t take anything I say personally. I can in no way be better than you and do not think myself more intelligent. I just might be a little closer to right than you but, maybe not. I’m simply being here trying to understand what is happening just like you are. But, please do keep the conversation going - I like it.

Clearly you are not familiar with reason. If anything it is anti-ego since unlike religion, there is no presumption of omniscience, but rather an acknowledgement that reality is the final arbitrary of truth. The most that an individual can hope for is to understand some small aspect of reality, which for those motivated by ego would be a terrible blow. Religion on the other hand promises to put the individual on a pedestal, to make them more than in fact they are. It feeds the ego and fear without ever allowing that there is any possibility that the individual could be mistaken.

For the person who employs reason, there is the possibility that they can be mistaken about a given fact of the world, and all that is necessary to demonstrate or reveal this is evidence. Again this is counter to religion in that nothing can ever count as evidence against the religious belief to the religous, which is clearly a statement of ego in the form of profound arrogance.

Since the errors are so clear in your claims about science, there is little need to go through them one by one. But it is worth looking at the gross error of reasoning found in this claim:

[quote] So, try as it might science and logic has yet to come to anything resembling a satisfactory answer to how this all got started and what I am by themselves. Don’t worry, I know you “know” what a human is but I don’t believe you do. You’ve just decided that their is enough “logical” evidence to support your belief.[/quote]

Now, ask yourself how “god” (for which no evidence whatsoever has ever been offered) got started. If your answer is merely “well it has always been” then you must either also accept this as a satisfactory answer for how reality “got started” else reveal that you are employing a clear double standard.

You have another factual error which needs addressing. You assume that religion was started to understand reality, but of course not only is this not true it cannot be true. COnsider that religion in no way deals with reality, but rather engages in pure fantasy and fiction. How is this supposed to enlighten us about reality? Recall that one of the larger religons continues to condemn education, including the very idea that the earth revolves around the sun, until just about ten years ago. For millenia we have known that in fact this is wrong-headed but the religion dictated otherwise because it went against their true purpose and sole reaosn for being created: control of others.

As for what you strangely refer to as a “belief” in logic, to examine whether this works compare it to reality. In EVERY instance you will find that in fact logic works. The reason for this? Because logic is merely the tool we use to describe reality.

The reason I said that b4, is when people here religion, they usually assume church, rituals, vudo’s etc whatever

Thats not what Christianity is. doing those things do not make you a Christian, it does not matter what religion you are, or what Church you go to,

what matters is whats between you and God, at the heart.

I don’t know about the rest, but the application of reason isn’t based on emotion, or emotional roles of the human subconcious.
Sure, there is something wrong with someone who lives ONLY by reason and by no emotional qualities, but I wouldn’t say that having an oversized ego would be the problem. Someone with too big of an ego, or too much pride would actually AVOID using reason to determine that they are “better” than others, never equal.

Kash-
Actually in my experience, Christianity means a LOT of different things to different people. Either way, a relationship with God would be concidered a religion… I think.

Now on for the rest.

Congrats, You went looking to disprove God to yourself and you’ve done that. I’m so proud of you.

Not to mention humbled by your incredible intellects and superiority over all us stupid cunt believers. Here’s a thought for you. Are you ready? Well, probably not but let me try.

I don’t practice a religion out of fear - period. If you don’t believe me grab your gun (or your Final Fantasy sword) and pony up. I began my initial study of religion for the same reason I studied the various sciences. To figure out what the heck was going on around here.

What is reality to you? You probably have only the most vague of answers based on what you can see and think… Maybe all this happened through evolution, yeah that’s right evolution. That’s the scientific answer for everything now right? Now, I believe evolution has played a role in the development of life as we know it but I cannot believe this started through what Darwin called the “Law” of evolution. Why? How did the first being that developed eyes know there would be something to see? Oh, it was just a crap shoot - the “Law” just tries stuff until it finds something successful? If you believe that you have two things 1. No “Law” (were did this law come from anyway) and 2. More faith in accidental success than almost any man has ever had in God.

Organic chemistry focuses on chemistry involving carbon because it is the “building block of life”. Then we find creatures deep in the ocean that live without oxygen and are not based on carbon. Wow, the intellect of man amazes me. In fact, it comes in my list as the second most amazing thing - right behind their conceit.

So, try as it might science and logic has yet to come to anything resembling a satisfactory answer to how this all got started and what I am by themselves. Don’t worry, I know you “know” what a human is but I don’t believe you do. You’ve just decided that their is enough “logical” evidence to support your belief.

The secret that everyone seems to have forgotten is this: that science (pure science that is) was started for the same reason religions were. To understand reality.

In truth, I believe reality can be found by those who earnestly pursue it through every path. Or, as one great book put it, “seek and you shall find, ask and it shall be opened to you.” Truth is spelled out beautifully in the Bible and many other religious texts from faiths around the world. It can even be found in science if you have a big enough brain to ask why and realize that ultimately you will come to a hypothesis that can’t be tested - perior.

The problem is that few can understand it well enough to teach it and even fewer have the courage to pursue it. As a result of these difficulties few people can lead you successfully to it.

I would also like to talk about the statement that faith is a glass pillar - another analogy I thought completely useless. Nothing great was ever done without faith. Sure some great things were done without faith in a God but nothing great has ever been done without the faith that it could be done.

But I’m going to stop now because a few things are obvious to me:
- You started this conversation simply to show, through the use of logic, how logic is superior to belief. In fact, you would put everything up to logic except your belief in logic itself.
- You really shouldn’t be surprised of your ability to convince yourself of what you believe. After all, faith wins in discussions of the faithful while they laugh at your logic.

But, most importantly. I don’t care what you think because what you think, what I think, has no bearing on what is really happening, it does not change the truth. The sad fact is this. You are simply asking unimportant questions because you fear asking “what is really going on here? What the heck am I and what am I doing here?”

Sorry I have rambled, feel free to use that against my thoughts if it provides you with comfort.

That no gods exist is simply one fact about reality nothing more nor less. This fact is far from an ultimate fact, which is what I take the otherwise nonsensical term “ultimate reality” to mean to mean.

I’ve never come across even a single example of people “driven to reason” much less “driven to reason” for fear of any sort, including the rather peculiar causes you suggest.

What of simple love of knowledge? A desire for wisdom? A drive to live an authentic life? Reason unlike religion is not fear based, nor does it necessitate fear.

[quote post="150"]Religion:
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices

Religious:
1 : relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity[/quote]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but Atheists are devoted ‘to an acknowledged ultimate reality’ (that there is no God).

——
When I said I agreed with you, I was agreeing with your statement that:
[quote post="150"]The short answer which accounts for all but the smallest of a fraction of a single percentage of the “faithful” is : fear.[/quote]

Are you using ‘Reason’ to mean ‘Atheism’ when you say that Reason is not fear based?

What drives people to reason and debate philosophical ideas?

Is not Reason (whether Atheism or any philosophical arguement) often driven by
a) fear not understanding the truth, of living one’s life based on a lie or
b) fear of the issues that are not understood?

While actual religions do fall prey to the negative characteristics you discribe, reason does not. Reason is not fear based, and though you imply I agree with you that reason is fear based, let me be perfectly clear that I could not possibly disagree more with that sentiment.

Let me present for consideration, the idea that every person practices religion – religion simply being a system of beliefs (and denials) about the supernatural realm. This would include every common form of religion, from Christianity to Hinduism to Atheism to every variant of the Occult, all the relatively unknown native religions and cults such as Freemasonry.
The agnostic? Personally, I allege that even he must have some (conscious or unconscious) presupposition of what he claims is unknowable, but for sake of this discourse, I will allow that one exception to the rule that “everyone practices religion.”

Agreeing with TXStorm, I’ve come to the conclusion that all religions– whether polytheistic, monotheistic, or atheistic – are practiced in order to alleviate some kind of fear.
That fear may be a fear of:
- some supernatural entity (theistic religions usually try to appease angry deities),
- other humans (some people practice religion to fit in or avoid persecution), or
- some other fear (perhaps one in TXStorm’s list).

Therefore it follows, that if one loses that initial fear, they may cease to be religious or (more likely) ignore their religion.
People who change religions do so because their fears were never annulled by the first religion.
People who change religions due to a new fear, without first looking for a solution in their original religion, are vain, shallow, and tempestuous, when it comes to their former religion.

To argue that your religion is the ‘true religion’ or better than another, is to present one or both of the following:
a) a different fear or set of fears
b) a different solution for those fears

I think that the reason most people believe in god(s) do so because they were taught to fear those god(s) either from childhood or as an adult. It would be interesting to know for sure, but I suspect that most people who change religions stay under the umbrella of their original religion: monotheism, polytheism, or atheism.

[quote post="150"]if you’re a believer [in God], do you fit into one (or more) of the above? Or is your case different?[/quote]

I’m a believer, but haven’t always been. And I haven’t always believed for the same reason.
Currently, I would be classified as a combination between:
#3 – I’ve been educated that way: I was brought up in a Christian family;
#10 – I’ve had some unusual experience that made me believe: Significant experiences in my life have:
- inspired a fear for the unknown (by training, the God who is not yet completely known to any man, much less me)
- agreed with multiple biblical descriptions of God’s nature
#14 – Inspirations from other believers: I consider the tremendous amount of martyrdom among Jews, Christians, and Muslims, and others who believe in God. I also consider the multicultural collaboration of evidence supporting the legends surrounding God; for example, the legend of a worldwide flood. (http://www.nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html)

Yes, most people do count the hits (affirmative responses to prayer) and ignore the misses (non-responses or unintended answers). However, instead of ignoring the misses, _my_ “misses” per-se have prompted me at various times to either
a) further explore the nature of God as presented by Christianity, or
b) lapse into Deism

I’ve considered many times and even now that Christianity may not be the right religion (after all, not everyone would be born into the correct religion) but I’ve never feared that enough to seek a solution in some other religion.

I don’t want to be vain, shallow, or tempestuous when it comes to religion (those characteristics are vices in most moral systems), so I must needs explore, in more depth, biblical Christianity before I could determine that Christianity held no relief for a new fear. So far, I have found no uncalmed fear… maybe that’s because I’m pretty cocky and brave anyway, or maybe because Christianity was created to answer all fears (after all, it claims to be).

Why is it so hard to be lieve in a being more complicated then us?

are we as humans not more complicated then a animal?

Can we not do things are creatures can’t?

The whole creation evolution will never end… But the way I see it, is to believe in Evolution is to call God a liar.

And besides who has ever witnessed evolution? But in today’s world things are created all the time! why should it have been any different long ago? before time?

The Big bang.. yea right like dust particles could explodes and make something.. Even if they were some how able to go boom, the last time I checked everything that went boomy, went bybye..

But lets go as far as to say there was a big bang… You think all of creation happened by chance? everything how beautifullly constructeds the universe, the amount of stars, teh placing of the Sun and planets? you think that happened by chance? No way its silly to believbe that.. If the Sun was even the slightest degree closer to us we would burn, and further any we would freeze, I say thats gotta be at least a 1 2 1000000000000000000000000000 worth of a chance a boom did that!

but again in the end its all faith!!! Since none of us were there back in the days I would rather put my faith in something that makes more sense, and something someone has witnessed and wrote about! then something that was not written about but was thought up of someone who thought they needed an explanation to prove there was no God.

This actually goes both ways. Many atheists don’t even consider the question if God exists seriously because they fear ridicule. A lot of things are going on in the world that science cannot explain to full satisfaction.

The scientific strategy usually is “Give the answer” or “Give some semi related mumbo jumbo” or “Call hoax” Don’t get me wrong, I am a scientist trained on one of the oldest universities in the world. Science is valid. Very valid, very usefull and probably the first place to look regarding any question you could have. Its just not comprehensive… Lets not pretend it is.. Untill it is..

I believe in God for one reason and that is that I perceive him. Not as a spiritual foot warmer. But as a living presence that responds to me. Something I can be in relation to or something I can ignore. Both are valid.

I have been involved in the occult for so long that I’ve gathered some idiotic stories about the way that the world apparently is. That science has not even begun to explain. Though some scientists (who are ridiculed by their peers) have done a lot of measurements. I have personally witnessed psychokinesis, extreme forms of telepathy. That kundalini energy that everyone says does not exist has literally brought me to my knees once. Synchronisity has in one situation kept on going for hours, where unrelated people and random events somehow fit together seamlessly to tell a story.

The idea that “If god exists he’d fix this mess we’re in.” is flawed because it makes assumptions on what God is. And it makes assumptions on that the world is broken in Gods eyes. Both are very unscientific. A scientist does not state what he assumes he knows. He tries to find what he is sure he does not know. And he tries to disprove what he thinks he knows.

Clearly the world is not broken. She is as she is. And any messes that exist are constructed by us. So apparently this is what we want out of life. And hey presto, we got it. If you wish to see the world as a mess then thats a valid path and your choice is accepted. Its just not the only valid option.

The world is a beautifull and crazy place. Maybe it was created by a God. I dont know I never asked him. But it sure is co-created by man…

I realise my entire account is subjective. When columbus came back from the americas his entire account was subjective too. The only way you will really know if God exists is by going out there and looking for him. You dont have to surrender to him, or go to church or any of that. Just use the scientific mind for discovery. And don’t make the mistake of predefining what God is supposed to be like..