In the Dwindling in Unbelief blog, there’s a post about how many people God has killed in the Bible (assuming all of it is true, of course). As the author says, many times the number isn’t stated (such as “every firstborn in Egypt”, or “that entire city”, or “everyone in the world except Noah and his wife”), but there are also many times where it is. The author is only counting those, of course.
The number, by the way, is 2,270,365. Not too bad.
Now (again, assuming that it all happened), we could argue whether those people really deserved to be killed, or whether some were killed just because of innocent mistakes, or for waging war on Israel (or having Israel wage war on them), or simply for already living in a land that God had “promised” to the Israelites.
Surely, if we were talking about a human being - say, an emperor of a large empire - instead of a deity who created the universe, we’d be describing him using terms such as “cruel”, “sadistic”, “insane”, “mass-murderer”, and “with temper tantrums like those of a spoiled child”. But we don’t - after all, this is God, right?
Because… well, we could say that “for God, there are different standards of morality”. But it’s more than that. For most Christians (and theists in general), God is the standard of morality!
Their belief goes like this: whatever God does, is moral. Whatever God wants, is good. Goodness is obeying God - if God wants the murder of someone, murdering that someone is good. Same thing for torture, rape, and so on. There are no objective standards of morality; it all comes from a single being and his desires.
In my opinion, that is a hideous way of thinking. By defining good as “what God wants”, you are refusing all standards; we all become rats in a maze. It’s no different than, say, having a mad, sadistic emperor who orders people tortured or killed on whims - and yet he is above any law, as he’s the emperor.
Therefore, we get comments like this one, in that post’s discussion:
The question you did not ask was; Is God justified in killing these people.
If God is who He says He is, then He is justified in all that He does. He is the ultimate standard for what is just and unjust.
He can kill who He pleases and is righteous in doing it.
Repugnant. How anyone can believe such a thing… is beyond me.
What if there is a god, but he’s evil? What if he’s cruel, sadistic, and demands human sacrifice, like the Aztecs believed their gods did? Is it “moral” to obey such a being? The author of that comment - who, I believe, is representative of most Christians - would believe so.
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Awesome post.
First off though, that guy (I HOPE) isn’t the representative of most Christians.
Most of Gods mass murders took place before Jesus. Who was quoted saying “Turn the other cheek”, and “killing is bad”… or something. Long story short, Jesus was a nice guy.
Secondly the people who wrote the bible back then probably figured God had something to do with anybody who died that they didn’t like, or weren’t effected at all by that death. Anybody they LIKED who died… probably Satan.
If God was doing all of this killing, wouldn’t that take away that whole free will stuff? This is the reason a lot of people read the bible as a metaphor, other than those who take word for word as truth. (WOW) Last time I checked God wasn’t on any wanted list for murder.
It’s always pretty interesting to compare the old and new testaments and see the difference in peoples writings over time. So interesting that you can kind of see peoples selfish intentions in writing the bible and the unanswerable question comes up…
Did people create God?
yes and we are crazy monkeys.
Crazy? Sure, a lot of us humans are. I’ve seen lots.
Monkeys? um… no.
[quote post="148"]Anybody they LIKED who died… probably Satan.[/quote]
That doesn’t end up, because according to the Bible, Satan has killed a total of 10 people, and that with some help from God.
[url]http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/08/who-has-killed-more-satan-or-god.html[/url]
Pedro is right, saying God is good and loving, and using him as your moral guideline, it doesn’t end up. “Thou shalt not kill”, the sixth commandment, and God himself doesn’t follow his own rules. Something is wrong here.
Actually I think using the BIBLE as your moral guideline doesn’t add up.
The bible is something people wrote, inspired by the thought of God with thier OWN intentions and views. OLD WORLD views.
Taking it word for word, of COURSE there are contradictions.
Plenty.
we are monkeys dammit lol.
You guys have computers, right? Sometimes you uninstall programs, or delete files, right? Do you want your programs uninstalling each other, or deleting each other, just whenever they want? Of course not.
So (If you could talk to them) you would tell the programs and files in your computer not to delete each other… “Thou shalt not delete” But you wouldn’t live by that law yourself. In fact, though, you would add some little rules to your law about not deleting each other - You would let certain programs delete certain files at certain times, as long as those programs were doing what they were supposed to be doing… “If a file shows itself to be a virus, O my antivirus program, thou shalt delete it immediately.” You might say.
Would you be giving your computer contradictory laws? Seems so. Would you yourself be contradicting those laws? Yup. Would those laws be good and right, even with their seeming contradictions? Absolutely.
The crux of the matter is that you own the computer, so you can do with it as you please. It is good and right for you to treat it as you will.
The Christian idea is that God created the world and He owns it. It’s at least not a ridiculous idea, then, that He should give us different laws than those He Himself follows. Right?
If you think that you exist for your own sake, of course it seems ridiculous that God (or anybody) should tell you what to do. But if you think that you’re owned by your Creator, it makes a lot of sense.
I think the idea that a sentient being is owned by anyone is repugnant - even if that “anyone” is the creator of the universe.
Sure, most Christians believe that, since God created us, he owns us and can do anything he wants - kill us, torture us, and so on - and we can’t complain, because we wouldn’t even exist if it wasn’t for his generosity. That’s what the book of Job is all about. Replace “God” by “evil South-American dictator”, who kills all your family on a whim and tells you that you’re lucky and should be thanking him, because he could have ordered you killed as well, and you may begin to see something wrong with that picture. Or not, since, well, that dictator is morally reprehensible because he isn’t divine… but I digress.
Anyway, the point here was whether God, or “what God wants”, is the definition of morality, like, I think, almost all Christians believe - which makes morality arbitrary, and doesn’t consider the possibility that there might be a god, but he’s a cruel sadist - which would make sadism and cruelty “good”.
Then again, there are many people who believe morality comes from society, from what the majority believes… which is no less arbitrary - and therefore absurd - than it coming from a god…
Where do you think it comes from?
[quote comment="3033"]Where do you think it comes from?[/quote]
Reply here.
Last I read the bible, I remember something about God giving the earth to us humans.
So it’s not Gods.
Plus we are not controlled programs, we have free will.
Otherwise religious people would never have to ask for forgiveness, and most religions embrace the idea of repenting.
Kren: Check out Luke 20:9-19 I think that there are certain respects in which the world is ours to do with as we please, and certain respects in which God retains authority over it.
Also, what I said about the computer was a parable, or a thought experiment - The situation with a computer is not similar in every way to reality.
If god exists its most definitely not a Christian god.
[quote post="148"]If God is who He says He is, then He is justified in all that He does. He is the ultimate standard for what is just and unjust.
He can kill who He pleases and is righteous in doing it.[/quote]
Since God is the ate standard for what is just and unjust, it must be right for me to kill whoever I want, simply because their ideas conflicted with mine.