Do you see the inherent contradiction in your statements here? Clearly if you take your argument seriously, which I assume that you do, then necessarily you have no basis for your argument (after all unless you want to place yourself above all of the rest of us, then you cannot know that what you claim is true.) Furthermore you cannot know that the xn bible “knows” it, or even exists.. (And of course no non-rational entity can know anything at all, so necessarily the xn bible cannot know anything.) So the argument, as with the entire position, is inherently fallacious and self-defeating. That said, this is of course the core of religion, faith: X=Not X…

BTW I do in fact know that I am alive.. Were I not, then necessarily there would not be an “I” to know either way.. since there is an “I” I am necessarily alive.

Maybe I’m wrong ya know? Maybe Christians or someone else has it right but I am very proud to be able to admit that I do know what is, only what I see, and that I am and will always be completely opened minded and realize that anything is possible. This gives me more peace than you could even imagine and has made my life so much better than before. I truly live now. I have never loved life so much as I did when I started thinking. Why not try it? Why not just live out of love for life? I’m not saying drink party(or anything else considered “wrong”) or not to drink or party or anything. I’m just saying enjoy life. Appreciate the sunset not because someone made it but because it’s beautiful.
Just enjoy life for what it truly is.
I’m proud to say I don’t know if anyone is right and that anything is possible.

PS - I apologize for any grammatical/spelling errors.

http://serenaid.wordpress.com/2006/08/24/a-christian-reply-to-an-open-minded-atheist-reply-to-christianity-part-1/

Meanwhile, just one suggestion: the <blockquote> HTML tag makes quotations much more readable, especially in long posts.

For instance, if you write:

<blockquote>This will be quoted</blockquote>

it will appear as:

This will be quoted

This should work in any WordPress blog, too, both in posts and in comments.

YOU SAID: The fact that others honestly believe in something, however, is not a valid reason to believe in it as well.

Absolutely. If you believe in something because others believe it, you’re only lying to yourself. However, it is much too common today. It’s the majority wins phenomenon. Many live pre-configured lives and honestly believe what they’re doing is the right thing to do. Go to school, get good grades, get a good job, find a good wife, marry her, get a good house, get a good car, have a few good kids, but they end up being bad most of the time. And so it comes time for you to be a good father. Put in a few good years of work. Make some good money. Do a few good deeds. Retire. Live the good old retired life. Hope for some good grand-children. Say good-bye.

They’re the majority. Now what do the children do, they look around and see that mostly everyone’s doing it, so it must be right. And they grow up doing it too. Oh how deceiving is the false sense of comfort of being part of a majority.

So why arent atheists becoming Christians since they’re the majority? Because the majority of Christians are not even Christians in the real sense of the word. And because the majority of people operate and live as if God doesn’t exist. Just look at a typical day in the life today and contrast it to the life and times of Jesus and His followers. The differences are huge. That’s why I say that atheism is all around us. Where there is no belief in God being expressed, there is a belief that there is no God being expressed. More about this down below.

Christian guidance and leadership is lacking. The Bible knows it too. It often states that the sheep of this age are in desperate need of a shepherd. And it tells us to let Jesus be our shepherd. The true meaning of Christianity is becoming lost in this bombarding age of distractions.

YOU SAID: How can an outsider like me objectively tell what “real Christians” are like?

Short answer, become an insider!
If you feel that you’re a real Christian, you’re not. A real Christian is humble and will never consider himself as worthy of being considered a real Christian, thereby giving off the appeal that he is one of the good Christians. For the only good Christian is Christ. And no one can or ever will compare.

A real Christian would not be in jail for a reason other than persecution of His beliefs. Christians who are in jail are either struggling Christians or Christians by inheritance only. There are a lot of Christian born individuals. Christians because they’re parents were. Christians because they’ve done a few sacraments that their parents told them they had to do. A real Christian is one who is born again. Born again Christians experience a rebirth that resurrects them from a self-centered way of life and into a God-centered one.
Most Christians are satisfied with the perks of Christian labeling and will not go the extra mile in backing up their label with any true meaning. Why? Because they thing the label itself buys them a ticket to heaven. How foolish and false it is to think that way. Mr. George W claims that he’s a Christian, but then again, he’s also using war to win battles of love and peace. Clearly, the Christian front is a real election winner since most Americans are in fact Christian of the label sense and not the real sense. Because if most were real Christians they would not have voted him in again and again.

YOU SAID: But I choose to deal with reality, instead.

You choose to deal with your perception of reality, not reality. We have no proof of what reality is. We cannot prove that what we live is in fact real. Fooled by the experience, we believe that we’re alive and this is reality. Why do we believe this? Again, because everyone else believes it. And because everyone else has taught us, from a young age, to trust in our eyes in order to tell good from bad, true from false. We don’t see everything. What we see, we only see in part. The Bible knows it too.

The Bible is over 2000 years old and still holds true when talking about society and the world around us. The times have changed but they really havent. We’re still struggling with the same problems that they struggled with over 2000 years ago. Time is an illusion. The understanding of the progress and passing of time is really one big mass confusion. We really don’t know anything. The Bible knows us all too well. The Bible knows more about the world and mankind than we could ever think that we know. Just read through portions of it. Clearly, its not the thinking of man that has gone into this book. It’s the thinking of a God.

Picture this, a child is playing with his alphabet blocks. He’s really enjoying himself. Then, his mother comes by and asks him if he wants to go play on the swings at the park. Now, if the child has never experienced the swings before, why would he choose to give up playing with his blocks which he knows are fun and which he knows are real, for something he cannot understand. His uncertainty of the existence of a swing set leaves him doubtful and hesitant to leave. And even if the swing set does exist, like his mom tells him, what if they’re not as exciting as the alphabet blocks? Is he willing to risk everything that has been spelled out for him, just because of all this talk about a swing set that is supposedly lots of fun?

YOU SAID: But if goodness, if love come from God, then why doesn’t he prefer those who believe in him?

Disobedience is the first step toward receiving God’s mercy and becoming a believer. All believers, except Jesus, experienced disobedience toward God before becoming obedient to God. All are made disobedient so that God may be able to make Himself known through His mercy of making them obedient believers.
I believe it is done this way so that when the disobedient are made obedient, they may see God’s mercy as even more powerful than any disobedient and opposing force that exists. I also believe it is done this way so that the now turned obedient might be able to know about disobedience. Only by knowing about disobedience through their own experience will they be able to relate to and help others experiencing this disobedience.

It’s easy to say one believes in God. However, to truly believe in God requires knowing God, obeying God, and loving God. To know God, we must make ourselves witnesses to God’s Word. To obey God, we must read His Word and know what He asks of us. To love God, we must learn about how much God loves us, through His Word. To love God, we must love others like He loves us. To love God, we must love Jesus. To know God, we must know Jesus. To obey God, we must obey Jesus.

God rejoices when His children turn away from disobedience and come to believe in Him. He doesn’t hate non-believers and love only believers. He loves all His children. I don’t think God prefers believers over the non-believers. However, when it comes times for justice, God is just and justice must be served. God constantly calls out to non-believers. However, through their ignorance they make their choice. I highly recomment re-reading Jesus’ parable about the prodigal son. Keep in mind that the father in the story is meant to be God.

YOU SAID: That has nothing to do with atheism, and Christians do exactly the same. This is like the “most serial killers eat bread, so let’s ban bread” argument. You’re not going to say that only atheists gather at major sporting events, are you?

No, but more than a real Christian would. By attending and being attentive, you’re giving glory to the sport. And, unless you work there, if you’re attending a sports stadium more often than you would be attending a Church, then you’re probably not being Christian-like.

YOU SAID: If you say you have a dog at home, I’ll believe you; it’s perfectly common, and you have no reason to lie to me. I won’t believe it without proof.

That’s the problem with humans. If it’s common, its believable. The minute it evades our tangible spectrum of reality, we take it as being impossible.

Children believe what you tell them. Why? Because they have an imagination. Having an imagination is a necessary component for faith. We were all given an imagination for a reason. If you were brought up believing pet dragons were normal but just rare, you’d believe me. However, if you let the world shape your mind, your imagination suffers. It’s not that we don’t have an imagination. Rather, our imagination has been overloaded with intruders. TV, movies, radio, newspapers, magazines, music, advertising, etc. They invade our imagination and influence us to think much like they want us to think. We are all vicitims of imagination poisioning. The invasion of such intruders has build boundaries around what was once a soaring imagination. We now limit our minds along the borderlines of what we’re being force fed. They say you are what you eat. In the same way, you are what you take in. If you’re constantly exposing yourself to the media and consumerism, you’e putting your imagination and your faith at risk of great damage.
Steve, we don’t live in an atheist world.

The reason why I said we live in an atheist world is because society operates in a way as if God doesn’t exist. The media throw at us sure doesn’t emphasize God in any way. The main theme shared across TV, radio, newspapers, magazines, billboards etc, is definitely not a religious or God-oriented one. Many live a routine life that dangerously contrasts the way Jesus or any of His disciples lived years ago. Today we live for ourselves. We are filled with ambition to become something great. The popular mindset is to find something you like and work hard at it in order to become better than everyone else is. Thereby, making you famous, rich, and successful. It’s what everyone lives for, fame, money, and success. Jesus and His disciples were not after such things. Therefore, such desires can’t be Christian. The pursuit for fame, money, and success is only possible once you deny yourself any possibility that God exists. Only by a such denial can one refuse to comply with Holy living standards. Since the majority of society’s counterparts operate on the basis of fame, money, and success, then it’s safe to say that society is not Christian-centered, but atheist-oriented.
I don’t mean that there are more atheists than Christians. Though there are more Christians than atheists, most Christians live and operate in a way that is more atheist than Christian-like. A real Christian is one who lives by Biblical standards. The closer the Christian resembles Jesus, the more real a Christian He is. To be a real Christian means to live in the likeness of Jesus Christ.

Take a look at one of my previous articles for the meaning of a real Christian:
http://serenaid.wordpress.com/2006/07/26/what-does-it-mean-to-be-a-christian/

YOU SAID: Not to mention that, if everything good comes from God, it makes us poor humans completely worthless. If we ever do something good, we have God to thank for it; however, when we do something evil, since God is perfect, it’s all our fault. Which is actually what most Christians believe: we’re evil sinners, and only God’s mercy saves us from the hellish fate we deserve. Christianity, it appears, is hatred of mankind.

Christianity is a love for all of mankind and a hate toward human nature, which is sin. Making the distinction is important. The person is not to be hated. It is our human nature that is to be hated. Hate is a strong word, yes, but if you don’t hate sin and just dislike it, you will not refrain from it as much as if you hated it. Sin is to be hated because it displeases God. God loves us so much and the least we could do is want to please Him.
We like to think that a sense of purpose makes us worth something. But all it does is distract us. As long as we continue to roam around, indulging in the world, with unconfessed and unrepented sins, we are worthless, we are dead.

The day we begin to repent and apply ourselves toward God’s purpose is the day we come to life. It is the day we become worth something. The more we become like Christ, the more we will share in the glory of Christ.

If we act with love, it is God at work in us. It is our spiritual nature conquering our human nature. If we act in total disregard of anything good, it is not ALL our fault. It is our human nature at work in us. It is sin at work in us. It is the temptation of evil that causes our human nature to conquer our spiritual nature. Our spiritual nature is one of faith. The greater our faith, the greater our resistance to sin. But faith is not something you give yourself. It is given by God to those who express a sincere desire for Him.

Read Romans 7:14 – 25 for an amazing depiction of our sinful human nature which I think everyone can relate to.

YOU SAID: The problem is that such feelings are highly subjective. To me, you never felt the touch of God; what you felt was, when you were desperate, some comforting feeling, which was exactly what you needed at the time - and, incidentally, what you were also expecting, right then. If you believed in another god or followed another religion (even one without gods, like Buddhism), you might have felt the same thing. Would you call that feeling, that “presence” you felt, “God”, and guess (or “feel”) that he once became human and sacrificed himself for our sins, if you’ve never been told about him or read anything about him? I doubt it.

Ok, but what gave me the comforting feeling? Was it my sinful human nature? I doubt it. Was it satan? No way. Why would he want to fill me with a feeling that would result in bringing me closer to God? I didn’t know what to expect. The situation was such a shock I lost all expectations for anyhing. But then, by God’s grace, just about when I was giving up on any and all expectations from that point on, He taught me to expect the unexpected.

If I was never told about God then I would use words such as comfort, peace, hope, love, security, guidance, light, and joy, to describe what I felt. And would you look at that. What a coincidence. God is all those and plenty more. The knowledge of God allowed me to associate my feelings to a higher power. Without the knowledge of God, I would have still had those feelings, and would have used adjectives to describe them. Adjectives that also describe God.

If it was my human nature that comforted me, then why have I never felt such comfort before that day? My human nature was with me since the beginning was it not. It was when I truly called out to God that I felt Him there. And If it was my human nature that comforted me, then why doesn’t everyone’s human nature comfort them. Why are some in need of anti-depressants, why are some suicidal. Are we not all of the same nature? Maybe they should try calling to God for help.

I’m just saying that the “he is beyond logic” argument is flawed, because it can be used for anything, no matter how preposterous.
*nods head in agreement* haha, i think i recently heard someone else also use a spaghetti god to prove their point.

“But if goodness, if love come from God, then why doesn’t he prefer those who believe in him?”
God willingly gives his love and goodness to those who believe in Him, but only if they are willing to let Him change their lives. Many people accept Christianity just for the Eternity in Heaven aspect, but want to continue living as they have always lived as a non-believer. And I suppose a Christian answer would be that Satan concentrates his attacks on Christians, he doesn’t need to worry about non-believers. So to wreck the witness of Christians, he causes Christians to stumble/mess up.
However, the actions of Christians good or bad should not be a deciding factor for whether Christianity is acceptable. Christianity itself undoubtebly teaches love, generousity, and kindness. So yes, Christians should be better.. but often Christians don’t want changed lives and all Christians make mistakes. If Christians could claim to be perfect people, then we wouldn’t see a need for Christ’s redemptive blood, or repentance.

“Not to mention that, if everything good comes from God, it makes us poor humans completely worthless. Which is actually what most Christians believe: we’re evil sinners, and only God’s mercy saves us from the hellish fate we deserve. Christianity, it appears, is hatred of mankind.”
More like love of mankind and hate of sin. We were created good, in God’s image! The picture of God’s love for mankind is all over the bible. Just because everything good comes from God doesn’t make us not good… I mean, according to the Christian belief, we came from God too.

more than half the people are Christians? And that’s here in Europe - in the U.S., it’s apparently 80-90%
Wow, I scoff at those statistics… I’m completely surrounded by non-christians everywhere I go. Not too too many atheists though, i’ll agree that being surrounded by atheism isn’t a valid reason for not reading atheist literature.
The places in America where you are persecuted for not believing in Christianity are the small minority. It is much much more likely to be laughed at and mocked for holding Christian beliefs. I am often scared to openly display my beliefs for fear of rejection.. and i know this is true for many of my friends throughout the states.
You have to keep in mind that with those statistics, many of the people who put down that they are Christians are people who say they are Christians because their parents are Christians, or because they’ve been dunked in water as a child, or people who go to church for just Easter and Christmas… America has a history in Christianity, so the percentage of people who can identify themselves as Christians through their parents or other older generations is vast, but the number of Christians who actually do more than have a bible sitting on their shelf getting dusty is quite small. And of course… that doesn’t make them Christians in the biblical sense.