Comments on: Christian myths about Atheism: discussion http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/ Thu, 20 Nov 2008 10:55:13 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.3 By: Don Gaudreau http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-46876 Don Gaudreau Tue, 05 Aug 2008 06:02:10 +0000 http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-46876 Finding people who are less spiritual than a rock is not difficult and proves nothing but such hatred on both sides is revealing. Unless one has witnessed something unexplainable as I have and possess an open mind hungry for knowledge of all things including known science and theoretical science, you are not capable of assessing diverging points of view. I don't care if you worship god, God, nothing, Nothing, money, yourself, or cows. * For one human being to love another: that is perhaps the most difficult of all our tasks, the ultimate, the last test and proof, the work for which all other work is but preparation. ~ Rainer Maria Rilke * All that is not eternal is eternally out of date. ~ C. S. Lewis ~ * "If God did not exist, He would have to be invented." But all nature cries aloud that he does exist: that there is a supreme intelligence, an immense power, an admirable order, and everything teaches us our own dependence on it. o Voltaire quoting himself in his Letter to Prince Frederick William of Prussia (1770-11-28), translated by S.G. Tallentyre, Voltaire in His Letters, 1919. Finding people who are less spiritual than a rock is not difficult and proves nothing but such hatred on both sides is revealing. Unless one has witnessed something unexplainable as I have and possess an open mind hungry for knowledge of all things including known science and theoretical science, you are not capable of assessing diverging points of view. I don’t care if you worship god, God, nothing, Nothing, money, yourself, or cows.

* For one human being to love another: that is perhaps the most difficult of all our tasks, the ultimate, the last test and proof, the work for which all other work is but preparation. ~ Rainer Maria Rilke

* All that is not eternal is eternally out of date. ~ C. S. Lewis
~

* “If God did not exist, He would have to be invented.” But all nature cries aloud that he does exist: that there is a supreme intelligence, an immense power, an admirable order, and everything teaches us our own dependence on it.
o Voltaire quoting himself in his Letter to Prince Frederick William of Prussia (1770-11-28), translated by S.G. Tallentyre, Voltaire in His Letters, 1919.

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-42554 Anonymous Wed, 14 May 2008 22:48:08 +0000 http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-42554 And my Atheism is not by birth however my father is an atheist. I tried to believe in God for a long time. I went to a camp, read part of the bible, even admitted i loved jesus. BUT. i now believe all that was because i just wanted belief badly, blind faith in something appealed greatly to me. I believe that people believe in god because they are afraid. Afraid of the unknown. They want to KNOW what is going to happen to them when life is over. And my Atheism is not by birth however my father is an atheist. I tried to believe in God for a long time. I went to a camp, read part of the bible, even admitted i loved jesus. BUT. i now believe all that was because i just wanted belief badly, blind faith in something appealed greatly to me. I believe that people believe in god because they are afraid. Afraid of the unknown. They want to KNOW what is going to happen to them when life is over.

]]> By: forrest rodgers http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-42553 forrest rodgers Wed, 14 May 2008 22:43:54 +0000 http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-42553 i believe that a lot of Christians, not ALL believe those myths. The main thing that bothers me is their intolerance and "pity" for us. A common one i see is that if someone doesnt believe in God then they must worship the devil. A completely ridiculous and unintelligent thing to say. Atheism is not a religion just a lack of one. Christians and everybody should be REVERENT. i believe that a lot of Christians, not ALL believe those myths. The main thing that bothers me is their intolerance and “pity” for us. A common one i see is that if someone doesnt believe in God then they must worship the devil. A completely ridiculous and unintelligent thing to say. Atheism is not a religion just a lack of one. Christians and everybody should be REVERENT.

]]> By: SSS http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-41982 SSS Wed, 30 Apr 2008 19:39:22 +0000 http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-41982 I am Hindu by birth and an atheist by choice. I grew up in a conservative religious family. My family is aware my religious preference or lack of it. Call me hypocrite if you want, but I do participate in all the rituals that my birth religion requires. That’s because my family expects it from me and if it makes them feel good; what’s the problem. Not all are made equal and some of us need the assurance ``That somebody Devine is watching over us`` and religion provides just that. Religion in my opinion is like primitive form of legal system. Most of us are law abiding citizens but for remaining few, religion acts as moral police. I think being an atheist doesn’t mean ridiculing believers or beliefs as most atheists’ do (that’s hypocritical). If believers don’t know the ``Truth``, neither do we. All we have are Theories that we all tend to live by. Also I think most religions ware conceptualized with the greater good in mind. But are twisted beyond reorganization by few, who use it to serve their own hideous purpose. I am not against religion I am against blind faith. The system where one is ready to kill or dye for his beliefs. Human life is the most precious thing of all and not worth loosing for anything I am Hindu by birth and an atheist by choice. I grew up in a conservative religious family. My family is aware my religious preference or lack of it. Call me hypocrite if you want, but I do participate in all the rituals that my birth religion requires. That’s because my family expects it from me and if it makes them feel good; what’s the problem.

Not all are made equal and some of us need the assurance “That somebody Devine is watching over us“ and religion provides just that. Religion in my opinion is like primitive form of legal system. Most of us are law abiding citizens but for remaining few, religion acts as moral police.

I think being an atheist doesn’t mean ridiculing believers or beliefs as most atheists’ do (that’s hypocritical). If believers don’t know the “Truth“, neither do we. All we have are Theories that we all tend to live by.

Also I think most religions ware conceptualized with the greater good in mind. But are twisted beyond reorganization by few, who use it to serve their own hideous purpose. I am not against religion I am against blind faith. The system where one is ready to kill or dye for his beliefs.

Human life is the most precious thing of all and not worth loosing for anything

]]> By: Stevo3377 http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-40091 Stevo3377 Tue, 25 Mar 2008 11:19:45 +0000 http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-40091 There's a lot ot be said. There's a lot we don't know. There are reasons to love, and reasons to hate. Life is not good or bad. After death is the unknown. In general, our feelings of happiness and of good are things we try to achieve for ourselves. If there is any meaning in the golden rule, we should try to achieve the same for others around us. Interesting site, interesting arguments. Figured out absolutely nothing for sure by reading all these responses. I do not understand what atheists are, I guess. They are more complicated than scientists in my field (biology). Good luck to you all. Haha, luck? There’s a lot ot be said. There’s a lot we don’t know. There are reasons to love, and reasons to hate. Life is not good or bad. After death is the unknown. In general, our feelings of happiness and of good are things we try to achieve for ourselves. If there is any meaning in the golden rule, we should try to achieve the same for others around us. Interesting site, interesting arguments. Figured out absolutely nothing for sure by reading all these responses. I do not understand what atheists are, I guess. They are more complicated than scientists in my field (biology). Good luck to you all. Haha, luck?

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-35298 Anonymous Fri, 21 Dec 2007 15:38:38 +0000 http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-35298 Ok I am not Christian, nor am I an atheist, I'm not entirely sure of what I believe religion-wise but I do know what I believe about what you're all talking about. Christians are not stupid, atheists are not stupid. What the problem is here, is a conflict of views, combined with closed-mindedness. We all get our views from what we were taught in childhood, from personal experiences in life, from books, and from stereotypes, and what we deem as cool or not, etc. Now neither Christians or Atheists are wrong, and neither of them are thinking entirely irrationally. Think about when you were a child - do you remember that monster that lived under your bed, or in your closet, and no matter how many times you made your parents check, or how many times they told you that no monsters were under your bed, or in your closet - you still firmly believed that this monster did in fact exist, right? Now, take that view and apply it to yourself, and to Christians. Christians - whether or not you dislike it, try to convert you, or at least get you to attend church in hopes of saving another person. - To them, they are doing the right thing, they are trying to prevent you from going to any torturous place that they firmly believe in. To them, hell is that monster under the bed, and they want to help prevent anyone from being eaten up by it. They were raised in, or taught this religion and decided to devote their lives to it, why bash them? We don't bash our children, or our friends for going out to fulfill their dreams. Same with Christians to Atheists. , That quote up there about how a Christian didn't want their child to marry someone of no religion, and would prefer that person to be any religion, as long as they were not Atheists - what is this? Open your eyes, everyone, whether you're Christian or Atheist, or whatever. This just doesn't apply to religion. When you think of an African American, what is one of the most common first thoughts that enter most people's minds? "Oh they live in a ghetto" or "Oh, gang violence" - not all African Americans are involved in gang violence, nor do they all live in ghettos. Shocked? Hmm what else... Asians, yes, what do you think of? Probably "Oh they are so smart and intelligent" or "They are bad drivers", etc. Sure, they are stereotyped as this, but not all of them are intelligent super-humans, or wreckless drivers. Not all of them make sushi, either. OH and for all the homophobes out there, this one is just for you: What are you so afraid of? Whether you like it or not, humans are all the same, we all have hearts, lungs, brains, arms, legs, etc. What we like and what we do may be different, but you are going to hate someone because they express their love to someone of the same gender? Every human is capable of love, and regardless as to if a man loves a woman, or a woman loves a woman, or if a man loves a man, all love is beautiful. If you're scared of being hit on, the reason is because you are scared you might actually like it - and that is just socially unacceptable isn't it? Regardless of what religion we believe in, what skin color we have, how much money we make, how smart we are, who we hang out with, or what we wear - or anything else that may cause conflict - we are all humans. We are all the same species, we just have different thoughts. And because one of us thinks differently than another does not give anyone the right to degrade either of them for their talents/lack of talents - because the funny thing with humans is, for every human talented in doing one thing, there's always another talented in doing something else. And instead of degrading each other, we should support each other and help one another out. Next time you see someone you hate - just because you know one fact about them, try to get to know them first. Don't be too hasty to judge, after all, that person you hate because of their skin color, sexuality, hairstyle, or the way they are dressed - could in fact be your next best friend who won't go spreading rumors about you. - But of course, you'll never know, right? Because you'll just harass them like the next guy and move on. Ok I am not Christian, nor am I an atheist, I’m not entirely sure of what I believe religion-wise but I do know what I believe about what you’re all talking about. Christians are not stupid, atheists are not stupid. What the problem is here, is a conflict of views, combined with closed-mindedness. We all get our views from what we were taught in childhood, from personal experiences in life, from books, and from stereotypes, and what we deem as cool or not, etc. Now neither Christians or Atheists are wrong, and neither of them are thinking entirely irrationally. Think about when you were a child - do you remember that monster that lived under your bed, or in your closet, and no matter how many times you made your parents check, or how many times they told you that no monsters were under your bed, or in your closet - you still firmly believed that this monster did in fact exist, right? Now, take that view and apply it to yourself, and to Christians. Christians - whether or not you dislike it, try to convert you, or at least get you to attend church in hopes of saving another person. - To them, they are doing the right thing, they are trying to prevent you from going to any torturous place that they firmly believe in. To them, hell is that monster under the bed, and they want to help prevent anyone from being eaten up by it. They were raised in, or taught this religion and decided to devote their lives to it, why bash them? We don’t bash our children, or our friends for going out to fulfill their dreams. Same with Christians to Atheists. , That quote up there about how a Christian didn’t want their child to marry someone of no religion, and would prefer that person to be any religion, as long as they were not Atheists - what is this? Open your eyes, everyone, whether you’re Christian or Atheist, or whatever. This just doesn’t apply to religion. When you think of an African American, what is one of the most common first thoughts that enter most people’s minds? “Oh they live in a ghetto” or “Oh, gang violence” - not all African Americans are involved in gang violence, nor do they all live in ghettos. Shocked? Hmm what else… Asians, yes, what do you think of? Probably “Oh they are so smart and intelligent” or “They are bad drivers”, etc. Sure, they are stereotyped as this, but not all of them are intelligent super-humans, or wreckless drivers. Not all of them make sushi, either. OH and for all the homophobes out there, this one is just for you: What are you so afraid of? Whether you like it or not, humans are all the same, we all have hearts, lungs, brains, arms, legs, etc. What we like and what we do may be different, but you are going to hate someone because they express their love to someone of the same gender? Every human is capable of love, and regardless as to if a man loves a woman, or a woman loves a woman, or if a man loves a man, all love is beautiful. If you’re scared of being hit on, the reason is because you are scared you might actually like it - and that is just socially unacceptable isn’t it? Regardless of what religion we believe in, what skin color we have, how much money we make, how smart we are, who we hang out with, or what we wear - or anything else that may cause conflict - we are all humans. We are all the same species, we just have different thoughts. And because one of us thinks differently than another does not give anyone the right to degrade either of them for their talents/lack of talents - because the funny thing with humans is, for every human talented in doing one thing, there’s always another talented in doing something else. And instead of degrading each other, we should support each other and help one another out. Next time you see someone you hate - just because you know one fact about them, try to get to know them first. Don’t be too hasty to judge, after all, that person you hate because of their skin color, sexuality, hairstyle, or the way they are dressed - could in fact be your next best friend who won’t go spreading rumors about you. - But of course, you’ll never know, right? Because you’ll just harass them like the next guy and move on.

]]> By: TXStorm http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-10338 TXStorm Thu, 01 Mar 2007 13:44:10 +0000 http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-10338 I always shudder when I hear the entrely baseless claim that "Science is a religion" as it demonstrates the lengths to which those who embrace faith as opposed to reason will go to try to give some credibility to baseless and harmful beliefs. The fact is that science is not a religion, especially since science and religion directly contradict one another with virtually every step. 1. Where religion dictates how the individual wishes that the world would be (to the extent of inventing invisible and impossible beings, unknown and unknowable impossible places, and archane rituals which are supposedly revealed through private "knowledge: which is unsurprisingly never verifiable) science is the practice of examining the world as it is. From the very first step the two are on different paths for religion starts with desire and fictional conceptions or wishes, whereas science starts with observation of reality. In scienc one follows the evidence, in religion one creates whatever one wishes. No similarity here. 2. Science involves critical thought and examination. This means that reality determines whether or not a claim about reality is true. Reality leads the way. With religion no comparison to reality is allowed, rather what "confirms" a religious claim about reality is the comparison to the claim itself. Or to put it another way, religion doctrine is axiomatic excluding itself from any examination or comparison to reality to verify, or of course falsify, the claims being made. Rather you are told to merely accept these absurd and false claims on "faith." 3. Religion is a means of controlling others, of telling them what they must believe, how they must act, and how much of their lives they need to dedicate to those in power in the religion. Contrarily there is no compunction in science forced upon you to believe as scientists do, only the rational conditional: "IF you want to understand the world, then you must examine it critically." This is no different than conditionals such as "IF you want to put the bike together properly you must assemble it in the proper order." You can believe in flying spaghetti monsters or invisble pink elephants or old men with beards sitting on clouds. None of these beliefs however will change reality, nor make those beliefs come true. Now I do agree that the trait which is so very common to the religious, that of being grossly intolerant of others accepting reality, needs to be eliminated, but given that religion only survives on fear and coercion, on the emotional satisfaction of forcing others to accept the same set of beliefs and the loosey goosey warm feeling of being surrounded by others who share the belief (all necessary since it is impossible to rely upon evidence and reality to support religious belief) this profoundly arrogant and antagonistic attitude will remain a core part of religious belief and practice. Once critical thought and critical examination is allowed, once the religous allow for respect for others, then the religion dies because it cannot stand without the pillars of illusion (1. Reality is not as it is. 2. We (the religious) are infinitely better than all others, so we have to help those poor souls even (or especially) if it means killing them). As a rational person I have no problem at all with respect for others, including the religious, but it seems that there is a current (represented here by your claim that science is a religion) that pretends that to respect others means to deny reality and reason and pretend that their beliefs are true. I cannot help but notice that this is merely one direction, meaning that certainly we will not find the same respect and simple acceptance of others belief and KNOWLEDGE as necessarily true, that the religious seem to demand from all others (including those of differing religions). Let's not insult reality and reason, and those who are able and willing to examine both by pretending that illusion, dishonesty, and mindlessness are identical to reason and evidence. I always shudder when I hear the entrely baseless claim that “Science is a religion” as it demonstrates the lengths to which those who embrace faith as opposed to reason will go to try to give some credibility to baseless and harmful beliefs. The fact is that science is not a religion, especially since science and religion directly contradict one another with virtually every step.

1. Where religion dictates how the individual wishes that the world would be (to the extent of inventing invisible and impossible beings, unknown and unknowable impossible places, and archane rituals which are supposedly revealed through private “knowledge: which is unsurprisingly never verifiable) science is the practice of examining the world as it is. From the very first step the two are on different paths for religion starts with desire and fictional conceptions or wishes, whereas science starts with observation of reality. In scienc one follows the evidence, in religion one creates whatever one wishes. No similarity here.

2. Science involves critical thought and examination. This means that reality determines whether or not a claim about reality is true. Reality leads the way. With religion no comparison to reality is allowed, rather what “confirms” a religious claim about reality is the comparison to the claim itself. Or to put it another way, religion doctrine is axiomatic excluding itself from any examination or comparison to reality to verify, or of course falsify, the claims being made. Rather you are told to merely accept these absurd and false claims on “faith.”

3. Religion is a means of controlling others, of telling them what they must believe, how they must act, and how much of their lives they need to dedicate to those in power in the religion. Contrarily there is no compunction in science forced upon you to believe as scientists do, only the rational conditional: “IF you want to understand the world, then you must examine it critically.” This is no different than conditionals such as “IF you want to put the bike together properly you must assemble it in the proper order.”
You can believe in flying spaghetti monsters or invisble pink elephants or old men with beards sitting on clouds. None of these beliefs however will change reality, nor make those beliefs come true.

Now I do agree that the trait which is so very common to the religious, that of being grossly intolerant of others accepting reality, needs to be eliminated, but given that religion only survives on fear and coercion, on the emotional satisfaction of forcing others to accept the same set of beliefs and the loosey goosey warm feeling of being surrounded by others who share the belief (all necessary since it is impossible to rely upon evidence and reality to support religious belief) this profoundly arrogant and antagonistic attitude will remain a core part of religious belief and practice. Once critical thought and critical examination is allowed, once the religous allow for respect for others, then the religion dies because it cannot stand without the pillars of illusion (1. Reality is not as it is. 2. We (the religious) are infinitely better than all others, so we have to help those poor souls even (or especially) if it means killing them).

As a rational person I have no problem at all with respect for others, including the religious, but it seems that there is a current (represented here by your claim that science is a religion) that pretends that to respect others means to deny reality and reason and pretend that their beliefs are true. I cannot help but notice that this is merely one direction, meaning that certainly we will not find the same respect and simple acceptance of others belief and KNOWLEDGE as necessarily true, that the religious seem to demand from all others (including those of differing religions).

Let’s not insult reality and reason, and those who are able and willing to examine both by pretending that illusion, dishonesty, and mindlessness are identical to reason and evidence.

]]> By: Melissa http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-10251 Melissa Tue, 27 Feb 2007 17:22:40 +0000 http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-10251 This blog has Changed to believers trying to change others minds. Yes I believe in God as my own person experences and studies have led me to. My boy Friend who i live with however does not. I want the same respect from atheist that they want. I am currently finishing a degree in earth science. Science is as much of a religion as any other faith such as any other religion. Religion is not just based on "is there a God" or not. There are more religions (science included)than i could count if i were to take the varies offspings of 6. Not to mention the beliefs of The minorities such as Native American that are not accounted for. The Point being that every one has a belief. Go and talk about your ideas and learn from one to another instead of pushing your ideas onto another. People will always believe what they want to believe. Most of the most interesting conversations i have ever had is with people who differ in their belief system from mine. Just because someone has a view that contradicts your own does not make the reasons why you believe what you believe any less. It is not a personal attack. Just respect one another. Religion is something that people have have had wars, murders, and other acts of violence. Why? I have no idea. We need to be more open minded on topics that we are willing to talk about. In other countries it might be hard (laws and regulations may hinder such actions), but as far as i am concerned i don't care if you believe in the Great noodle monster that lives on mars. This blog has Changed to believers trying to change others minds. Yes I believe in God as my own person experences and studies have led me to. My boy Friend who i live with however does not. I want the same respect from atheist that they want. I am currently finishing a degree in earth science. Science is as much of a religion as any other faith such as any other religion. Religion is not just based on “is there a God” or not. There are more religions (science included)than i could count if i were to take the varies offspings of 6. Not to mention the beliefs of The minorities such as Native American that are not accounted for. The Point being that every one has a belief. Go and talk about your ideas and learn from one to another instead of pushing your ideas onto another. People will always believe what they want to believe. Most of the most interesting conversations i have ever had is with people who differ in their belief system from mine. Just because someone has a view that contradicts your own does not make the reasons why you believe what you believe any less. It is not a personal attack. Just respect one another. Religion is something that people have have had wars, murders, and other acts of violence. Why? I have no idea. We need to be more open minded on topics that we are willing to talk about. In other countries it might be hard (laws and regulations may hinder such actions), but as far as i am concerned i don’t care if you believe in the Great noodle monster that lives on mars.

]]> By: Big B http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-9682 Big B Sun, 18 Feb 2007 18:23:13 +0000 http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-9682 I will not a disagree with you athiest because I know much of nothing about it. But I can defend my religion. By reading the bible you would see that it is completly relevant to modern times. I find solutions to my problems in it. I don't know what a athiest person would do if they can't ask a friend or family member for help. It seems the closer I get to GOD the easier my life goes. I agree with the athiest who said most athiest would believe in GOD if they had some sort of proof. But I'm here to say that if you put your faith in him, things (unexplainable) will happen to help you get through life with less stress. I mean when I'm right with god I get strange feelings about things and make better decisions. I never ended up at the wrong place at the wrong time. You can't just sit back and say i need proof. Nothings goin' to happen, because wouldn't that be to easy. He wants to see if you trust him. Also people who find things wrong with the bible are sometimes right. But it is impossible for a piece written so long ago to be correct litteraly. You must take it in moral value. People mistake the bible for being literal, but if you have a good preacher he would translate it so that it relevant to your life. That's why we just don't just read the bible, we have to go to church. It seems as though everything my pastor says helps me with my problems. I personaly dodn't think that is a cowincidence. I know people came closer to god in time they became a better person at heart.In conclusion. I think no person can deny how God has changed some peoples lives around. I will not a disagree with you athiest because I know much of nothing about it. But I can defend
my religion. By reading the bible you would see that it is completly relevant to modern times. I find solutions to my problems in it. I don’t know what a athiest person would do if they can’t ask a friend or family member for help. It seems the closer I get to GOD the easier my life goes. I agree with the athiest who said most athiest would believe in GOD if they had some sort of proof. But I’m here to say that if you put your faith in him, things (unexplainable) will happen to help you get through life with less stress. I mean when I’m right with god I get strange feelings about things and make better decisions. I never ended up at the wrong place at the wrong time. You can’t just sit back and say i need proof. Nothings goin’ to happen, because wouldn’t that be to easy. He wants to see if you trust him. Also people who find things wrong with the bible are sometimes right. But it is impossible for a piece written so long ago to be correct litteraly. You must take it in moral value. People mistake the bible for being literal, but if you have a good preacher he would translate it so that it relevant to your life. That’s why we just don’t just read the bible, we have to go to church. It seems as though everything my pastor says helps me with my problems. I personaly dodn’t think that is a cowincidence. I know people came closer to god in time they became a better person at heart.In conclusion. I think no person can deny how God has changed some peoples lives around.

]]> By: atheist and proud http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-6768 atheist and proud Sun, 14 Jan 2007 16:49:22 +0000 http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-6768 you actually believe all that stuff about god being the eternal creator blablabla? i think all the stuff about this heaven and creation was just made so all the "faithful ones" werent scared of death because they thought this "perfect one" was there to protect them - heaven is a bit like death insurance-give us a few ours a week at church or praying for the rest of your life and you shall have "eternal life" in heaven with your creator-why not just spend all the hours you might have spent in the church or praying with your friends or family having a good time? you actually believe all that stuff about god being the eternal creator blablabla? i think all the stuff about this heaven and creation was just made so all the “faithful ones” werent scared of death because they thought this “perfect one” was there to protect them - heaven is a bit like death insurance-give us a few ours a week at church or praying for the rest of your life and you shall have “eternal life” in heaven with your creator-why not just spend all the hours you might have spent in the church or praying with your friends or family having a good time?

]]> By: Irrational and Rational Atheism http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-6741 Irrational and Rational Atheism Sat, 13 Jan 2007 23:00:33 +0000 http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-6741 [...] A recent exchange of comments between me and Niki, starting with this one, has made me think about what “atheism” really means. [...] [...] A recent exchange of comments between me and Niki, starting with this one, has made me think about what “atheism” really means. [...]

]]> By: Kirby http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-6435 Kirby Wed, 10 Jan 2007 04:03:46 +0000 http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-6435 just a few quick comments on christians not being rational or following science on dinosaurs- the word "dinosaur" did not appear until long after the bible, especially the old testament, was written. try leviathan some time on the ark(Noah's)- the species noah received into the ark would not have been around today. evolution(fundies don't freak out) can occur. most christians agree nature can take away traits/genes most simply do not believe they can be created. For example dinosaurs became extinct because in the post flood world they could not find their niche. And as far as size goes (see ignorant athiest belief "you couldn't fit dinos on an ark) dinosaur eggs are at largest the sizes of two or three basketballs stacked on top of each other. fossils- lateral evolution(specialization) supports a fossil record and the abundant and large gaps in it. creation/christianity has as much scientific backing and rational as atheism. for those of you don't believe me see my friends: http://www.icr.org/research/ just a few quick comments on christians not being rational or following science

on dinosaurs- the word “dinosaur” did not appear until long after the bible, especially the old testament, was written. try leviathan some time

on the ark(Noah’s)- the species noah received into the ark would not have been around today. evolution(fundies don’t freak out) can occur. most christians agree nature can take away traits/genes most simply do not believe they can be created. For example dinosaurs became extinct because in the post flood world they could not find their niche. And as far as size goes (see ignorant athiest belief “you couldn’t fit dinos on an ark) dinosaur eggs are at largest the sizes of two or three basketballs stacked on top of each other.

fossils- lateral evolution(specialization) supports a fossil record and the abundant and large gaps in it.

creation/christianity has as much scientific backing and rational as atheism. for those of you don’t believe me see my friends: http://www.icr.org/research/

]]> By: Niki http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-6407 Niki Tue, 09 Jan 2007 19:27:33 +0000 http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-6407 [quote post="128"]Niki: Believing (or not) in vampires has to do with philosophy?[/quote] I'd say it's not. What's your point? I've never seen a vampire (unless I was watching TV) and I have no reason to believe they really exist. On the other hand, I am quite convinced that I exist and that I experience mental phenomena like "being in pain" or "looking at my computer screen". That's an important difference to vampires. [quote post="128"]Niki: Believing (or not) in vampires has to do with philosophy?[/quote]
I’d say it’s not. What’s your point? I’ve never seen a vampire (unless I was watching TV) and I have no reason to believe they really exist. On the other hand, I am quite convinced that I exist and that I experience mental phenomena like “being in pain” or “looking at my computer screen”. That’s an important difference to vampires.

]]> By: Einsteinmonkey http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-6376 Einsteinmonkey Tue, 09 Jan 2007 18:29:12 +0000 http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-6376 [quote comment="6315"]If, after reading this blog for a while, you're still not convinced that I arrived at atheism through reason, instead of "faith", I don't know what else I could say to convince you. :)[/quote] I didn't say anything of the sort :P Niki: Believing (or not) in vampires has to do with philosophy? [quote comment="6315"]If, after reading this blog for a while, you’re still not convinced that I arrived at atheism through reason, instead of “faith”, I don’t know what else I could say to convince you. :)[/quote]
I didn’t say anything of the sort :P

Niki: Believing (or not) in vampires has to do with philosophy?

]]> By: Niki http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-6330 Niki Tue, 09 Jan 2007 13:37:38 +0000 http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-6330 [quote post="128"]An atheist who believes in an undetectable “immortal soul” is guilty of the same error that theists make when they believe in a god they’ve never seen and have no evidence for: wishful thinking. What else is there to suggest that such a “soul” exists? If it does exist, then science should, eventually, be able to detect it; if not, then it most likely isn’t there.[/quote] Sorry, but saying that anyone who uses reason should (accidentially?) come to the same philosophical beliefs you have is at least as arrogant as claiming that anyone who has ethical values/values life/can see beauty/has a brain must therefore believe in god. You'll have to accept that people as smart and as rational as you (some of them even smarter ;-) ) will arrive at different conclusions than you have, especially when it comes to philosophical questions. You may well critisize other people's positions, but then you should first read what their positions are, otherwise you'd become as stubborn (and boring) as a christian missionary. David Chalmers website provides an excellent list of 100% theology-free texts (well, at least most of them) on the subject, if you're interested. FWIW: Contemporary substance dualists usually arrive at this belief because they find explanations of mental phenomena, qualia or free will that materialism can provide unsatisfactory. To be fair, materialism has no real explanation of these things, just rough hints in what direction answers could be. Also: What makes you believe that everything that exists can be discovered by (natural) sciences? This belief is highly unscientific, and about as unplausible as the belief in flying spagetti monsters! Just look at it from an evolutionary perspective: I assume birds have a conception of reality that's quite ok for their purposes. Maybe it's even so good (or maybe they're so dumb) that they can't see a single flaw in it. Well, that's how evolution works: It doesn't produce perfect miraculous creatures who can react to any situation perfectly, understand everything, and never fail in their reasoning. It merely produces organisms adequately adapted to their environment, adequate enough so that they can survive, but no more than that. What makes you think we are an exception to that rule, and can (even in principle) understand everything there is? I have no doubt that our conception of reality (including the theory of relativity, quantum physics, big bang, evolution...) is a lot more precise than the bird's, but I have no illusions that we might be "the end of evolution" so close to perfection that our picture of reality must be the real thing. That might be wishful thinking on your part ;-) [quote post="128"]An atheist who believes in an undetectable “immortal soul” is guilty of the same error that theists make when they believe in a god they’ve never seen and have no evidence for: wishful thinking. What else is there to suggest that such a “soul” exists? If it does exist, then science should, eventually, be able to detect it; if not, then it most likely isn’t there.[/quote]
Sorry, but saying that anyone who uses reason should (accidentially?) come to the same philosophical beliefs you have is at least as arrogant as claiming that anyone who has ethical values/values life/can see beauty/has a brain must therefore believe in god. You’ll have to accept that people as smart and as rational as you (some of them even smarter ;-) ) will arrive at different conclusions than you have, especially when it comes to philosophical questions. You may well critisize other people’s positions, but then you should first read what their positions are, otherwise you’d become as stubborn (and boring) as a christian missionary. David Chalmers website provides an excellent list of 100% theology-free texts (well, at least most of them) on the subject, if you’re interested.

FWIW: Contemporary substance dualists usually arrive at this belief because they find explanations of mental phenomena, qualia or free will that materialism can provide unsatisfactory. To be fair, materialism has no real explanation of these things, just rough hints in what direction answers could be.

Also: What makes you believe that everything that exists can be discovered by (natural) sciences? This belief is highly unscientific, and about as unplausible as the belief in flying spagetti monsters! Just look at it from an evolutionary perspective: I assume birds have a conception of reality that’s quite ok for their purposes. Maybe it’s even so good (or maybe they’re so dumb) that they can’t see a single flaw in it. Well, that’s how evolution works: It doesn’t produce perfect miraculous creatures who can react to any situation perfectly, understand everything, and never fail in their reasoning. It merely produces organisms adequately adapted to their environment, adequate enough so that they can survive, but no more than that. What makes you think we are an exception to that rule, and can (even in principle) understand everything there is? I have no doubt that our conception of reality (including the theory of relativity, quantum physics, big bang, evolution…) is a lot more precise than the bird’s, but I have no illusions that we might be “the end of evolution” so close to perfection that our picture of reality must be the real thing. That might be wishful thinking on your part ;-)

]]> By: Pedro Timóteo http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-6315 Pedro Timóteo Tue, 09 Jan 2007 11:54:05 +0000 http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-6315 If, after reading this blog for a while, you're still not convinced that I arrived at atheism through reason, instead of "faith", I don't know what else I could say to convince you. :) As to the rest... as I replied to Niki, yes, atheism, technically, is simply the lack of belief in a god. But the reasons that lead (or should lead) one to atheism -- not believing in extraordinary claims without extraordinary evidence, believing that, if reality and our beliefs differ, reality wins, and so on -- should, in my view, also lead one away from any other supernatural, unprovable, evidence-less claims or explanations, including fairies, vampires, ghosts, reincarnation, an <i>undetectable</i> "immortal soul", and so on. If one arrives at atheism for the right (rational) reasons, as you say, then one should consider any supernatural claim exactly as the "there is a god" claim: with skepticism. Demanding evidence, and knowing that the burden of proof is on the side that claims those things exist. An atheist who believes in an undetectable "immortal soul" is guilty of the same error that theists make when they believe in a god they've never seen and have no evidence for: <b>wishful thinking</b>. What else is there to suggest that such a "soul" exists? If it does exist, then science should, eventually, be able to detect it; if not, then it most likely isn't there. If, after reading this blog for a while, you’re still not convinced that I arrived at atheism through reason, instead of “faith”, I don’t know what else I could say to convince you. :)

As to the rest… as I replied to Niki, yes, atheism, technically, is simply the lack of belief in a god. But the reasons that lead (or should lead) one to atheism — not believing in extraordinary claims without extraordinary evidence, believing that, if reality and our beliefs differ, reality wins, and so on — should, in my view, also lead one away from any other supernatural, unprovable, evidence-less claims or explanations, including fairies, vampires, ghosts, reincarnation, an undetectable “immortal soul”, and so on.

If one arrives at atheism for the right (rational) reasons, as you say, then one should consider any supernatural claim exactly as the “there is a god” claim: with skepticism. Demanding evidence, and knowing that the burden of proof is on the side that claims those things exist.

An atheist who believes in an undetectable “immortal soul” is guilty of the same error that theists make when they believe in a god they’ve never seen and have no evidence for: wishful thinking. What else is there to suggest that such a “soul” exists? If it does exist, then science should, eventually, be able to detect it; if not, then it most likely isn’t there.

]]> By: Einsteinmonkey http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-6297 Einsteinmonkey Tue, 09 Jan 2007 06:03:06 +0000 http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-6297 I have to agree with Niki, Pedro. You've said yourself so often that atheism is simply the lack of belief in a God. This also brings up (very tangentially, but an important point nonetheless) the point that atheism should be arrived at for the right (ie. rational) reasons, as a characteristic of critical thinking which spans further than just theism. I have to agree with Niki, Pedro. You’ve said yourself so often that atheism is simply the lack of belief in a God.

This also brings up (very tangentially, but an important point nonetheless) the point that atheism should be arrived at for the right (ie. rational) reasons, as a characteristic of critical thinking which spans further than just theism.

]]> By: bill http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-6295 bill Tue, 09 Jan 2007 05:37:55 +0000 http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-6295 i think atheists often end up believing in hard line materialism and this contradicts a lot of their rhetoric of freedom. its comlicated. the atheists i know are often pretty militant and have a quasi logical approach which i think often abuses many of their sacred ideas of rationalization. im speaking in general terms. because im rather frustrated in the dumbed down debate between the two factions. and well... organized religion and its evils which people rant about could be attributed to extremism as oposed to the entity(religion) itself sort of a dark side- an innate moral defect the Soviets were pretty secular and nationalism is often at the core of many conflicts. so in a rambling conclusion im a fence sitter and wish both sides would look at the implications of their reasoning on free will the idea of a mind v a body and the moral relativism that sort of springboards from the athiest view point. i think atheists often end up believing in hard line materialism and this contradicts a lot of their rhetoric of freedom. its comlicated. the atheists i know are often pretty militant and have a quasi logical approach which i think often abuses many of their sacred ideas of rationalization. im speaking in general terms. because im rather frustrated in the dumbed down debate between the two factions. and well… organized religion and its evils which people rant about could be attributed to extremism as oposed to the entity(religion) itself sort of a dark side- an innate moral defect the Soviets were pretty secular and nationalism is often at the core of many conflicts. so in a rambling conclusion im a fence sitter and wish both sides would look at the implications of their reasoning on free will the idea of a mind v a body and the moral relativism that sort of springboards from the athiest view point.

]]> By: Niki http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-6276 Niki Tue, 09 Jan 2007 00:02:54 +0000 http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-6276 To be honest, I'm not really familiar with the term "supernatural", so I might well get it wrong. Anyway, I have at least influential (although unorthodox) philosopher in mind (Peter Unger) who is definitely an atheist but still argues that each of us has an immaterial soul, and that it probably continues to exist after our our physical death (although, in his philosophy, it doesn't experience much any more then, as it needs a physical mind to have experiences). There was even one philosopher (I think it was Chisholm) who claimed that we have a soul, but that it is an elementary particle. So, although the thought of having some kind of spooky soul might seem strange, that doesn't mean it can only be encountered in the realm of religion. [quote post="128"]Typically, no one who believes in, say, reincarnation, would describe him or herself as “atheist”.[/quote] I guess the reason why this is rare is that you need some kind of explanation why there should be an afterlife, heaven, reincarnation, hades or whatever: It just seems so extremely unlikely. God is an excellent explanation for this (well, god is an excellent explanation for anything if you believe in him), so many reincarnation/afterlife/heaven-believers "need" god. But then again, something similar can be said for morality: god really is an explanation (or maybe a basis) for many christians' morality; But that doesn't mean morality can only be understood in a religious system. To be honest, I’m not really familiar with the term “supernatural”, so I might well get it wrong.
Anyway, I have at least influential (although unorthodox) philosopher in mind (Peter Unger) who is definitely an atheist but still argues that each of us has an immaterial soul, and that it probably continues to exist after our our physical death (although, in his philosophy, it doesn’t experience much any more then, as it needs a physical mind to have experiences). There was even one philosopher (I think it was Chisholm) who claimed that we have a soul, but that it is an elementary particle. So, although the thought of having some kind of spooky soul might seem strange, that doesn’t mean it can only be encountered in the realm of religion.

[quote post="128"]Typically, no one who believes in, say, reincarnation, would describe him or herself as “atheist”.[/quote]
I guess the reason why this is rare is that you need some kind of explanation why there should be an afterlife, heaven, reincarnation, hades or whatever: It just seems so extremely unlikely. God is an excellent explanation for this (well, god is an excellent explanation for anything if you believe in him), so many reincarnation/afterlife/heaven-believers “need” god. But then again, something similar can be said for morality: god really is an explanation (or maybe a basis) for many christians’ morality; But that doesn’t mean morality can only be understood in a religious system.

]]> By: Pedro Timóteo http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-6275 Pedro Timóteo Mon, 08 Jan 2007 23:54:13 +0000 http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-6275 vjack: I don't know if you'll read this, but... we were both wrong, in a way. No, I didn't copy any myths from your blog, but I <b>had</b> visited it, because you had posted <a href="http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/15/16-common-myths-about-atheists/#comment-2087" rel="nofollow">a comment</a> here back in August! And I answered, and read your own list, then, but it was after I posted mine. So, not only did you forget you had already commented here, but I forgot I had read your list before... weird. It must be old age or something... :) vjack: I don’t know if you’ll read this, but… we were both wrong, in a way. No, I didn’t copy any myths from your blog, but I had visited it, because you had posted a comment here back in August! And I answered, and read your own list, then, but it was after I posted mine.

So, not only did you forget you had already commented here, but I forgot I had read your list before… weird. It must be old age or something… :)

]]> By: Pedro Timóteo http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-6274 Pedro Timóteo Mon, 08 Jan 2007 23:29:40 +0000 http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-6274 I won't say that everything real is physical; there are abstract concepts, emotions, and so on. But none of those is supernatural. I will concede, though, that I may be "adding" to the original meaning of "atheism" here, though most uses I've seen of the word (including in books such as those by Sam Harris or Richard Dawkins) seem to agree with my own usage of the term: no gods, and no supernatural. Typically, no one who believes in, say, reincarnation, would describe him or herself as "atheist". I won’t say that everything real is physical; there are abstract concepts, emotions, and so on. But none of those is supernatural.

I will concede, though, that I may be “adding” to the original meaning of “atheism” here, though most uses I’ve seen of the word (including in books such as those by Sam Harris or Richard Dawkins) seem to agree with my own usage of the term: no gods, and no supernatural. Typically, no one who believes in, say, reincarnation, would describe him or herself as “atheist”.

]]> By: Niki http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-6273 Niki Mon, 08 Jan 2007 23:16:43 +0000 http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-6273 [quote comment="6266"]Niki: to me, "atheism" includes "there is no such thing as the supernatural". Other people may (and do) redifine the term...[/quote] Then you probably make the word stronger than it is: It simply means that you believe god doesn't exist (theos is god in greek IIRC). I think what you mean is physicalism (which says that everything real is physical), but that's not the same thing, the one doesn't entail the other. No offense, but "for me atheism includes there is no such thing as the supernatural" is the same kind of reasoning as saying "for me, atheism includes ethical relativism", or "for me, atheism includes immorality". Some people believe it, but it's still a myth... [quote comment="6266"]Niki: to me, “atheism” includes “there is no such thing as the supernatural”. Other people may (and do) redifine the term…[/quote]
Then you probably make the word stronger than it is: It simply means that you believe god doesn’t exist (theos is god in greek IIRC). I think what you mean is physicalism (which says that everything real is physical), but that’s not the same thing, the one doesn’t entail the other.

No offense, but “for me atheism includes there is no such thing as the supernatural” is the same kind of reasoning as saying “for me, atheism includes ethical relativism”, or “for me, atheism includes immorality”. Some people believe it, but it’s still a myth…

]]> By: Pedro Timóteo http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-6266 Pedro Timóteo Mon, 08 Jan 2007 21:43:41 +0000 http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-6266 Niki: to me, "atheism" includes "there is no such thing as the supernatural". Other people may (and do) redefine the term... Niki: to me, “atheism” includes “there is no such thing as the supernatural”. Other people may (and do) redefine the term…

]]> By: Niki http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-6264 Niki Mon, 08 Jan 2007 21:18:49 +0000 http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-6264 From your replies to Myths 8 and 13, I suspect you may believe in another myth yourself: That no atheists believed in a non-physical soul, or in the possibility of some kind of life after (physical) death. In fact, this isn't true; there's certainly no neccessary connection between cartesian mind-body dualism and the belief in some kind of god; I guess people think so because Decartes tried to proof the existence of an immaterial soul and of god, but he did indeed "proof" the existence of the soul first, so it doesn't depend on his belief in god. And you can certainly believe in many kinds of afterlife (like reincarnation, or "ghosts" as in Harry Potter) without believing in any kind of god. From your replies to Myths 8 and 13, I suspect you may believe in another myth yourself: That no atheists believed in a non-physical soul, or in the possibility of some kind of life after (physical) death. In fact, this isn’t true; there’s certainly no neccessary connection between cartesian mind-body dualism and the belief in some kind of god; I guess people think so because Decartes tried to proof the existence of an immaterial soul and of god, but he did indeed “proof” the existence of the soul first, so it doesn’t depend on his belief in god. And you can certainly believe in many kinds of afterlife (like reincarnation, or “ghosts” as in Harry Potter) without believing in any kind of god.

]]> By: Pedro Timóteo http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-6136 Pedro Timóteo Fri, 05 Jan 2007 12:29:16 +0000 http://www.wayofthemind.org/2006/08/19/christian-myths-about-atheism-discussion/#comment-6136 vjack: sorry to say, I had never seen your blog before. It looks quite interesting, and you probably just got a new reader. :) However, precisely because I had never read your blog before, I didn't copy anything from you - or from the other "myths about atheists" lists I've since discovered. A couple of days ago, Sam Harris himself wrote a similar <a href="http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-op-harris24dec24,0,6766679.story?page=1&coll=la-news-comment-opinions" rel="nofollow">list</a>. Many of the myths appear in my own list... or, from what I see now, in yours. Did the author of "The End of Faith" steal content from us? :) Of course not. The myths <b>are</b> common, after all... vjack: sorry to say, I had never seen your blog before. It looks quite interesting, and you probably just got a new reader. :)

However, precisely because I had never read your blog before, I didn’t copy anything from you - or from the other “myths about atheists” lists I’ve since discovered.

A couple of days ago, Sam Harris himself wrote a similar list. Many of the myths appear in my own list… or, from what I see now, in yours. Did the author of “The End of Faith” steal content from us? :) Of course not. The myths are common, after all…

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