The original 16 Common Myths About Atheists post currently has a huge amount of comments, which may scare new readers off. Besides, most of them have diverged from the original purpose of the article (and I’m guilty of that as well, in my replies) – the discussion quickly left the myths about atheists, and became about whether God exists or not.
So, we can continue the discussion here. 
However, just one request: let’s try to go back to the original subject: the myths about atheists. Either whether they exist or not (though I have already posted about that here), and whether some of them are correct – that is, they aren’t really myths, because atheists are indeed like that (I don’t think we are, though there may be some sporadic exceptions).
So, without further ado… feel free to comment. 
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i think its a great thing that this stuff is up here because all of these ‘myths’ do exist, and tons of people still believe in religion strongly enough to get in the way of human decency and interaction. people who are very religious believe all that because they are the exclusive bunch, not us. they teach all kinds of patience and love, but they dont practice it unless its with people of the same or similar group/faith. they do it because that is how they are raised… a very obscure oulook on life. it goes a lot deeper than a belief in god or not. it soaks into their subconsious thought and rationality… i’ve read the bible myself, its a real cool book. but you need to remember its a book written by some tribesmen who knew very little of the world that they existed on.
its really easy to switch subjects from these ‘myths’ to whether or not god exists… because in order to get a clear and understood view on why these ‘myths’ arent necessarily true (there will always be bad people, athiest, christian, white, black, 3 legged, or long-haired. it doesnt matter what group you belong to, its who the person is.), the atheists need to get across where we’re coming from… which isn’t always like us (because we don’t care what you believe, as long as our beliefs are respected).
i went to church every week until i graduated 8th grade. i went to catholic school and graduated from 8th grade IN THE CHURCH. after that, i never went back. i’m a perfectly good guy. i think that my morals are either on the same level, or in some cases, MUCH better than those of catholics, christians, and other god/christ-related religions that i know personally. but since we’re not seen as a religion (what we’ve been brainwashed through society, government, our surroundings, media, etc to believe is a secure group of good people… when in fact a lot are, but a lot are not.)
i dont believe that atheists will really move up in society’s skewed view for a while because of the general outlooks of the other religions. they don’t want to respect us, they wont. we cant change a thing. they’re like the bully in grade school. we cant do anything about it. dont think that i hate religious people. i just hate that once you get to a certain level, the people who are affiliated with the church are also world leaders that don’t exactly act very pious towards the rest of the world. i believe that in due time, maybe in a few generations, maybe in 1,000 years, all of the major god and christ religions will be on their way out if not gone from practice. i’ve noticed over the last 10 years a lot more poeple making a lot more sense than they used to regarding religion and the reality around them. i believe this trend will grow more and more… but it will take a long time.
just wanted to say that my whole life, at least until the point where i could think rationally for myself (maybe 2nd grade at the latest) i have fully doubted the existance of god and the credibility of the bible. so don’t think that my good morals are because i grew up on religion. ive never believed that religion is right. i’m not trying to change people from their beliefs… i think it will happen naturally at some point, i’m just waiting for that era to come. but every bs story from the bible that i heard, and every time someone would mention ‘you better do this or you could go to hell’ i would think to myself “you’re hopeless”.
Why would all of these God-believers be reading your site if they didn’t question the existance of God? For any god-believers who read this… think to yourself why you are even on this site? Do you feel you are spying on the enemy? I don’t go to websites about god and start trash talking. I go to a Catholic school even and in religion class I don’t sit around explaining to my class logical reasons why their god doesn’t exist!
Vonya: Intelligent Design is crap. It is a thinly veiled form of Creationism. I don’t agree with it not because of my own personal beliefs, but because it contradicts Evolution. Evolution is a scientific theory, an OBSERVABLE one. Intelligent Design is hardly a theory, and until they come up with some sort of proof to back it up, they should leave it OUT of schools. It should not be taught.
You’ve totally misunderstood me on the Separation of Church and State issue. I did not say that it was wrong for Christians to be elected into office. I said that it’s wrong for them to break the barrier of Church and State. Laws are being made based on the bible. They are incorporating religion into government, and THAT is what’s wrong. Like I said before, feel free to practice your religion, however, keep it to yourself, and keep it OUT of the government.
“…I don’t agree with the idea that we’re treating [the nation] as if it is [a Christian nation].” Ahh, but we are. Ask any Christian if this is a Christian nation, and they’ll affirm it. If it weren’t a Christian nation, then why aren’t gays allowed to get married? Why is it that every time a politician speaks, he inevitably speaks of god? Why are atheists considered un-patriotic? Bush said so himself. Atheists are not patriotic. Why is it that several laws have been passed that are straight out of the bible? This IS a Christian nation.
“Do your own research if you’re willing and open minded enough to learn more, but don’t accuse Christians of things that you don’t know.” See, there’s the typical “Stop persecuting me for my beliefs!” Christian attitude that I see so much. I was not accusing Christians of anything, other than bigotry. I know that Christians aren’t supposed to follow the Old Testament, and why. What I’m saying, though, is the whole “Homosexuals are evil!” argument is no longer valid, as Leviticus was in the Old Testament. You see what I’m getting at? Christians are picking and choosing laws that are convenient for them. They shouldn’t be following the Old Testament anyway. The death of Jesus made the Old Testament (for Christians) null and void. Apparently, most Christians aren’t aware of this. If they’re going to follow one law, they need to follow them all. None of this, “Well, I like that one, but not that one.” Follow none, or follow all. There is no gray area here. It’s black and white.
“The fact that the plaque was removed doesn’t make me feel persecuted, but it does tell me that this nation is not heading towards being a theocracy, that the nation is heading towards the constitutional way of everyone having freedom of beliefs.”
Maybe not yet, but it won’t be long, I imagine, before Christianity is the national religion, and any other religion or lack thereof becomes illegal. As long as republicans are in office, we’re screwed.
Alena: Your logic is faulty at best. Just because I’m reading this site doesn’t mean I question the existence of God, no more than associating with sinners makes Jesus a sinner. If anything, the fact that so many Christians read and replied to this site shows me that they don’t just blindly follow the crowd, despite what the author would insinuate.
One observation I’ve made: If you look at the replies between Christians and Atheists, you’d see that the replies by Atheists are more “inflammatory” and emotionally-charged, complete with slurs and insults. I just find that interesting for a group that claims to be tolerant of other people.
I saw a comment about how Lance Armstrong was near death came back etc. and saw that this was a mircale. So am i to understand that a completly healthy person with no problems that dies, was another mircale of gods?
And if god has a nicly lade out plan, i think someone said picture earlier, then weather or not we have free will he will still intevineto create his scheme. which means that in the end his plans will come about and all choices we make are meaningless. We will end up exactly where god intends us 2.
This is making me think that god is sadistic. Like the world we live in is a giant maze, and were all mice in it looking for the cheese. In this scenario god would be the 12 year old kid watching the experiment where all the mice can go where ever they want…..unless hey go somewhere that god dsnt want them to go then he kind of….redirects them. Or when they get to close to the cheese….he just kills em.
If god created us, and of cource he is all powerful and knowing etc, then he knows wats going to happen in the future. so he knows what each of us will do……so then this life is just some game to him. he knows what were going to do, or hes going to change the rules to suit his image. no matter what we have no choice, as everything would be predestined.
And someone else made a comment how the athiests were being insulting and that were meant to be tolerant of other peoples beliefs. Yeah i guess on the whole we like to follow that train of thought, but doesnt everyone want the moraly superiour path? And last i checked that was never a prerequisted of being atheist. And ok lets pretend we are all insulting….when was the last time you had an atheist at your door INSULTING u and telling you that your life is basically a sin? when was the last time an atheist tried to convert you while you were wating dinner?
Recently my girlfriend dumped me becuase I do not believe in God. She told me that God picks who you will marry and that God makes the relationship works. Because I cannot see Him is the reason I don’t believe in him, is what she told me. I know this qualifies as one of your myths but I just feel that it is so unfortunate that two people cannot be together simply because of an idea, a concept. She told me I had to go to Church the very next day and to go with her everyday, that she went, to be saved. I am 24, my dad believes in God and my mother does not. He gave his children a choice when we were little of what we wanted to believe, each to his own. My father believes that the greatest gift God has given us is choice. And if we excersice that choice we are doing Gods will. I know this is slightly off topic but not everyone is a hypocrate for being religious or a devil for not. But if you think of choice as a gift, then no one is wrong. I just wish everyone could choose acceptance, then a post like this would not be necessary.
Titan: Indeed, God does have a plan. However, the choice of whether you want to be part of it is left up to you. Recall the story of the prodigal son. The father had plans, but the son chose to ignore it. Because the father loved his son, he chose to respect that decision. What’s amazing is that even after all that, the father still took his son back after the son returned. It’s exactly the same with us.
And nothing is predestined. Thousands of people may start a marathon, but how many actually finish it? We all know where the end point is, but whether you or I get there is a matter of training, commitment, and willpower. God gave a vision of what’s waiting for us, it’s up to us to get there.
God is all-knowing, and as such he knows the consequence of every single decision you make at every single moment of your life, from which shirt you’re going to wear today to who you’re going to marry. Think of a decision tree (borrowing a concept from Computer Science), where ALL your choices are laid out, and for each of those choices, a whole set of other choices, and so on. Your whole life is laid out before him as a series of choices. More than that, certain choices you make affect other people’s lives, just as theirs affect yours. (Imagine the President’s decision tree!) Multiply that by the number of people who have ever lived and you’ll start to get an appreciation of how all-knowing God is.
At any given time, God knows what the most likely choice is that you’ll make (even better than you do). Following that path down the tree, he can see your entire life as a series of probable choices. With every choice you make, he can see what your life would be like TO THE VERY END. Cross-referencing this with every other person in the world, and he can accurately predict what happens until the end of time. It’s actuarial science on a MASSIVE scale. But that’s all it is: perfect mathematics. The choice is still yours.
It can’t be perfect mathmatics for what you propose is an infitite concept. Therefore it is NOT perfect mathmatics. Also if he is god then he decides when time ends…..Also so what your saying is that god is limited?!? You can’t have it both ways. Either he is all powered or he is not. If he can see every possiable choice, for every person, for all time……then that means he can see the future. And since we were all created by him etc etc that would mean he knows what were going to do….which goes back to the science project theory.
And if he knew what we were going to most likly do…..and we did something else, wouldn’t that make god wrong?
I could have sworn that the bible said somewhere be perfect like your farther in heaven…..or somehting along those lines.
And if god could make a little mistake like guessing what i was going to do wrong, why is it not possiable that he made other mistakes?
And if he makes mistakes in my life the mathematical odds of him not making mistakes in other peoples lives. And given how long he has been around and how many lives he makes choices about it is mathematicaly proabable that he has made trillions of mistakes.
So tell me, does god have a god that he confesses to?
What your suggesting is matematically impossiable, your suggestion a complete and utter infite theory. This isn’t mathemtically sound at all. Ok so god has given me a choice and i am free to ignroe christianity and all his teachings. I can chose to be completly free of it….Yet he will still punish me for ignoring it?
Ok so god is all knowing and he knows every decision i con make, every choice i have he can see, and the same for all other people on earth that have and ever will be. Which creates a infinte theory that grows at a ridiculous expodential speed, but none the less we’ll keep going with this theory. And from these choices god picks the most likly one. But what if it doesnt fit in with his plan? is this the explanation for babies dieing? Someone made a choice god didn’t expect and created a baby he hadn’t planned for so he just killed them…..this is getting dangerously close to sardistic again.
And if god has a plan then he know what will happen…which means he already knows what i will do becasue he created me. Which means he infulenced my life by knowing the future. So i never really had free choice. You can’t have it both ways either god can see the future or he can’t. One way he knows what we’re going to do. the other means that he is not all powerful as he is serverly limited.
Another interesting point to be made is that you just said that god knows the most likly choice we will make. Ok so the most likly that means that if i chose a diffrent one, which mathematically has to happen, then god is wrong. And if god made a mistake on me then he made that mistake on many other people, or so probability shows. Which means that if you look at how long god has been around for and the amount of people he ‘influences’ then he has made trillions of mistake……which makes god imperfect. And say with one of these mistakes someone gets killed that should not have been killed, does that mean god’s up on man slaughter charges? Also does your god have a god that he confesses to? seems like he has a few trillion things to confess.
He can see the future yes, or more accurately he can see every possible future. He’s outside of time, it’s all laid out before him. And it does not follow that just because he made us he knows absolutely what we’re going to do. That’s what free will is all about. That’s what separates man from everything else. That’s what it means to be made in his image. He can choose to know, but that would take away free will. In short, he limits himself the same way a parent restrains from stepping on his child’s freedom.
Your logic between comparing parents to god doesnt stand. Its like on a ocmputer. If you play a game and u make a character you know basically what the character will do. Much like a parent knows roughly what their kid will do. But still the character in the game does do small thigns by itself and same with a child.
But god would be like the game creator. He doesnt only create us he is the one that GIVES us free choice, which means that as he created it as he sees fit, we can only think what he has deemed possiable. Which means that once again free will is still corrupt of perfection becasue it was created by a high being.
And it im still curious about what god does since its proven that he makes mistakes. Which means he is not perfect. Which makes the bible wrong in some places. and if it is wrong in some places then it can be wrong in others.
If God can only make you think what he has deemed possible, exactly how are you questioning him now? The ability to question him is the whole point of human existence. To compare us to game characters would be like comparing us to animals.
Oh, and to clarify: you haven’t proven that God makes mistakes. All we have is conjecture at this point. To me, just because he can’t predict for certain what you’re going to do doesn’t make him wrong. It just means that he respects your right to choose.
Finally, just to address an earlier point: the decision tree for all of humanity is not infinite, simply because there aren’t an infinite number of human beings. It’s astronomical in scale, to be sure, but is not infinite.
P.S. You can’t say that my God/Parent analogy doesn’t stand simply by replacing it with a different analogy. That’s just bad logic.
No i was questioning your analogy with one of mine, just like you comared my logic to your anaolgy. Also it is infinite not astronomical becasue every choice ever made, or not made, could lead to more humans being created and this more choices that can be made. Also think about it this way. There are infinite places i can place my foot on the ground, each one is a choice, thus based on just that one TINY choice we have an infinite concept. Thats ignoring the other infinte choices that have infinte options.
Ok i have conjecture that god makes mistakes…and how is this diffrent from the conjecture that god exists??
First things first. Questioning is one thing, outright dismissal is another. If you’re going to do that, at least say why. Don’t just give another analogy and use it as your reason.
Second, the earth does not have infinite dimensions, and therefore there are only so many places you can put your foot.
Third, even if it were infinite, what makes you think God can’t handle it?
Finally, there is no difference. Like I said, all we have is conjecture at this point. As was stated in an earlier post, if we could prove God exists, then he’s useless to us. It’s like trying to explain a cube to a square. You can try and explain to the square what a cube is like, and it can even make an imperfect representation of the cube based on its own terms, but by its very nature a square will never be able to experience a cube. Same thing with this discussion. All we can do is speculate on the nature of God, but being squares (sorry, no pun intended) all we can do is try to grasp the infinite.
note: i noticed i keep going back and forth in my observations and explanations. this is because they are all inter-linked, and i skip from 1 subject to another right when it is important, and that makes it a little hard to follow…. if it doesnt make sense to you at first, please read it throughout. it’ll be worth it.
insults are thrown in here cause people are sometimes dumb and egotistical. everyone is (including myself) to some extent. some more than others… but dont relate that to whether or not they are athiest. relate that to just people being people. if you lump things like that into a catagory like “athiests insult people” thats just like saying “white people listen to rock music” (i’m all american and i can’t stand rock) or “rap songs are always about guns” (some people actaully rap about positive things) you really can’t generalize in any sense like that, because there are way too many people and variations of everything out there to lump together.
WE ALL NEED TO KEEP IN MIND A PERSON IS A PERSON. ONCE YOU START TO CATAGORIZE, THATS WHEN THE TROUBLE STARTS. IF THERE WERENT 2 GROUPS HERE DEBATING, THERE WOULD BE NO DEBATE, AND NOT ONLY COULD ALL OF US FOCUS ON OTHER THINGS, WE’D ALSO FIND OUT THAT EVERYONE WILL ALWAYS FIND PEOPLE LIKE THEM IN ANOTHER SOCIAL GROUP.
SO HERE. IM GOING TO BREAK IT DOWN AND SOLVE EVERYTHING… ALTHOUGH, THE DEBATES WILL GO ON AND ON. THERE ARE JUST TOO MANY PEOPLE WITH TOO MANY IDEAS TO ALL AGREE ON THIS AND BE SATISFIED. THIS WILL HOPEFULLY JUST BRING A GENERAL UNDERSTANDING BETWEEN EVERYONE. I KNOW THAT AN UNDERSTANDING WONT STOP THE DISPUTATION, BUT I KNOW IT’LL MAKE SOME KIND OF GOOD IMPACT IN THE WORLD.
soooo here we go. first off, i’m way too lazy to read most of this, so i havent really seen it all. but from what i’ve read, i’ve seen the church-goers trying to sway us in their favor by telling stories from the bible or from their faith. most of these stories are popular and well known. this is because, at least in my opinion, they are good stories. i’ve always wondered what made them “true” though. now to the athiest, a story like noah’s ark isnt true. theres no proof, nothing like that has happened since, nothing remotely close has happened, not to mention that since then, we have discovered REDICULOUS amounts about our world, the chemistry behind it, how people work inside and out (body and mind), the universe… plus we have also learned a LOT more about the history of the planet and the universe than ever was known or believed at the time of the bible. BUT! to a true believer in god, all that is basically disregarded. the only thing a religious person can say to an athiest is “you just have to believe”. the athiest will say “no i dont”. thats all. it shouldnt be a problem. the problem is really more underlying than prominent.
this whole page is filled with different people living lives in different ways. none are specifically good or bad in relation to the world or society (or at least they should not be classified as such until they are evaluated as a person on their own). i dont care if you think the athiests are the devil’s workers. i’m telling you right now: we’re people. just every day people who believe something different and live life accordingly. if you are reading this and saying to yourself in your head “thats just not true”, then you are just plain ignorant. that kind of attitude is the same to me as white on black racism. most of us athiests, with our perspective on the world, realize how precious everything that we are and that we experience is. not only that, but it places the responsibility of life straight in our own laps. we dont look up to a ‘god’, ‘pray’, and expect whatever we want to happen to actaully happen. we take the initiative in our lives. i’m speaking in VERY broad terms here. i’m sure everyone takes initiative in their everyday lives, but i’m talking about traits and beliefs that stay with a person for years or even their whole life. example: we need to take care of the planet. things can change, due to people alone, and we can completely ruin the planet. as mundane and cliche that example was, it means a lot. by taking the responsibility, our attitude towards nature and other people usually is more patient, caring, welcoming, … basically everything the church SAYS it is. now i’ve been to plenty of churches and catholic school. i can tell you from first hand experience, at least EVERYWHERE i’ve been in my whole life, the church says it teaches forgiveness, patience, love, and so on… now thats not untrue, but at the same time it really isn’t true. this is because there are people in the church who believe in those GREAT things in life, and all they want to do is make the world a great place for themselves and everyone around them… but then there are people in the church who only act like that to other people of the same church, group, or faith. they still might think in their head that they are the perfect shining example of a good hearted christian, (this is a subconsious thing that a lot of people dont realize, although some do) but in reality they close people of certain groups out. the athiest group is the perfect example. the church goers say “athiests are the devils work” BOOM! cut out a whole ‘group’ of people, who, keep in mind, dont actaully consider themselves part of a group.
we’re the ones that see people as living things on this earth. nothing more. we lucked out by actaully getting to be here in this life, and even moreso by being born into the world as an intelligent person. we have more potential than any other living thing on this planet. we dont want to waste it. we dont waste time thinking about ‘this group is bad; this group is good’. we think ‘if i get along with you, awesome. if not, i guess that sucks but hey, life goes on. i hope yours is as great as im trying to make mine’
now, put yourselves in an athiest’s shoes for a minute. i’m not asking you to change any of your ideals, but i’m asking that you read the following and think about it in the perspective of the athiest, just to get a better understanding of where we’re coming from. you dont have to agree, but at least understand whats going on in our minds.
if someone came up to you, an athiest (if you are or not, bear with me), and told you a story from the bible like david and goliath, (which IF you are a true christian/catholic/whoever believes in the bible, you must BELIEVE actually happened, or else your whole base of faith is completely flawed.) and expected you to believe that there really was some little kid named david once in existance who killed a real life GIANT BEING, which we have yet to see in this world, the with a SLING AND A ROCK… wouldnt you just get a little irritated that someone is actually trying to make you believe that there was a giant running around somewhere. thats just one general example. there are a few flaws, but ive written too much to rethink it and type out a different version. the whole point is to get the idea across, not actaully focus on the details.
here’s another example where you dont need to worry about a perspective shift: if someone came up to you and told you with a complete sincerity that there was a purple and green polka dotted dragon behind you doing a little jig, you wouldnt even use the miniscule amount of energy that it would take to turn around and look. obviously you know its not there, but the person telling you is telling you for a reason. he wants to you look and believe its there. wouldnt you get a little weirded out if someone did that? i’m in no way calling people of the church crazy, but metaphorically, in this story, the athiest is the “you” in the story, and the crazy guy whos seeing dragons is the religious person. thats why you’ll get strange and sometimes offensive responses. some people react differently than others. some would say “i completely respect your opinion, but i dont believe it”, some would say “you’re an idiot, get out of my face”
wellllll i wrote way too much and my brain has kind of turned to mush so im just gunna end it here. i dont even want to re-read it and come up with a nice conclusion paragraph. i’m sure you can piece togethere where i’m coming from lol
PS- i just read a little bit more before i posted and i noticed a mention of the US being a christian nation. it is. i dont agree with that, and i think it will change in time. but i just want to point out another thing that popped into my head. in the same post they mentioned the ban of gay marriage. just think about that. people are people. who decided what society was and how you HAVE to live it? i know all the religious folks will say “god decided”. then think about this… why did god decide that? why would god limit the possibilities and amazing complexities of man? if i believed in god, i’d at least be pissed about that lol. im not gay, but i fully support gay marriage. who is the government or even the church to tell someone the way they want to live their life is wrong?
sounds like theres a lot more plusses on the athiest side of the thought spectrum regarding human decency, love, forgiveness, sympathy, patience… etc… to sum it up: virtue
LAST BUT NOT LEAST!
i dont speak for all athiests. i dont speak for most athiests. these are my personal outlooks alone. my view on it probably isnt 100% right, but i can guarantee that at least if some parts of my outlook are adopted by someone or a few people who read this, it will make positive changes in the world somewhere.
You’re right. You haven’t read most of the posts. I never made a generalization that all atheists insult people. I just made that observation of the atheists that have posted on this site. And the insults weren’t even made in response to bad arguments, it was a general attack on how Christians live their lives. I just found it curious that these people (who posted on this site) talked of tolerance while using insults in the next sentence.
Does that mean that all atheists are bigotted? Not at all. Most of the atheists who’ve posted on this board are just the opposite, in fact. I know that there are good atheists and bad atheists, just as there are good christians and bad christians. And while I can understand your argument of how an atheist views a Christian’s beliefs, you also have to look at the flipside of the mirror. Science has yet to offer conclusive proof that the bible is wrong. Until it does, we’ll continue preaching. As someone posted earlier, just don’t take it personally.
You could say that Science hasn’t found conclusive proof that the purple and green polka dotted dragon doesn’t exist. Two hundred years ago scientists didn’t think gorillas existed, and yet here we are.
The “free will” excuse simply does not fly. The judeo-Xn concept of a god has four necessary elements (and a whole lot of trivial unnecessary elements):
1. Omnipotent (all powerful)
2. Omniscient (all knowing)
3. Omnibenevolent (all good)
4. Creator of all
Each of these poses serious problems to the entire myth, but addressing the free will excuse, if this all powerful, all knowing, creator of all chose to create a world in which evil exists (which it clearly does) then necessarily such a being is NOT all good. It would have to know the very make up of the world it was creating (all knowing), and since it could choose any world at all to create (all powerful) including one in which free will exists but evil does not exist, and since the world in which we find ourselves in fact has evil in it, this hypothetical entity either does not exist else is not all good (which being one of the four crucial elements, means that it does not exist.. )
Which btw returning to a remark on the original comments, is one of the many logically sound proofs that the judeo-xn god CANNONT exist. The claim that science, logic, etc. has not disproved the existence of such a “god” was simply false.
I forgot to comment on this line: “Science has yet to offer conclusive proof that the bible is wrong. Until it does, we’ll continue preaching. ”
This is clearly putting the cart before the horse. Rationally speaking it would be incredibly foolish to simply accept as necessarily true any and all myths, including the xn bible, not merely until they are disproved, but in the face of direct counter-evidence. Would you similarly accept that necessarily there exists a large pink rabbit sitting in the bowels of a volcano who tosses out presents every 33rd of june on leap years and guarentees that you will live forever in the vapors of his home? After all this has not been explicitly disproved…
Start with what is known then add to that only that which is learned. This means that knowledge is added, as opposed to unfounded and unsupportable belief.
All of which will probably be read as insulting since it is suggesting that when one is discussing KNOWLEDGE one ought to stick to that which constitutes KNOWLEDGE as opposed to other mental states. However the points made are simply pragmatic and reasonable.
First you have to define what “evil” really is. Evil, in its basic form, is simply the absence of Good, just as Cold is the absence of Heat, and Darkness is the absence of Light (“all that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing”). Hell is not a pit of fiery sulphur, but rather a state of absolute separation from God. Hatred, Malevolence, Jealousy, Greed, Pride, Malice, Envy; all of these spring from the absence of Good. God did not create these things. He made the universe, and saw that it was good. When man disobeyed God, he had no choice but to separate himself from man. It was this separation that created evil as you know it – the absence of God.
As for large pink rabbits sitting in the bowels of a volcano, the last time I checked none of them have helped to change the lives of people. I believe in the bible because I have applied its teachings in my life and have seen the difference. That is my starting point. That is what I have learned. That is my foundation. This is the main talking point of every Christian. We’re not selling a belief system, we’re sharing our experience. This is why the burden of proof is on Science. Because unless Science proves the bible wrong, I would rather live my life by its standard.
But humanity was getting along before the bible was their….which means that most likly these ideals were their long before the bible ever got their. I know plenty of people that have never read a bible and know nothing about religon that still have these morals.
“Second, the earth does not have infinite dimensions, and therefore there are only so many places you can put your foot.”
How many directions can you walk? If you keep zooming in you’ll find that there is always an ever so slightly diffrent dirrection that you can go.
“if we could prove God exists, then he’s useless to us.”
Oh that statement could apply to any and all discoveries. What use could charged electrons possiably have for us? oh that right electricity
What possiable use could a steam powered cart have to use when horses are so much faster? oh wait we can use that knowledge to improve out technology. Who’s to say that the proof of god would make him useless. It didn’t hurt the theory of gravity.
I have no problem with christians enjoying their faith, but i have absoulutly no problem with my life. In gace i greatly enjoy it. What i HATE about (generalisation following) the need to preach and change others. To me that just seems arrogant. Like some christians know their superior and feel the need to save us poor wretched souls. I have a few friends that ……are/were hardcore christians. And i was always getting in trouble for saying “god damn it”. Now i understand that for me to go into a church on my own free will and say it is incredibly rude wrong etc.
But if im in a public place i can say whatever i want whenever i want, and should not have to put up with christians saying “don’t say that its blashpemy.” Now ill give it that my friends don’t do that to me anymore, but that was because if they did i went on a massive “blashpemy” rant.
Like i said that was a huge most likly over generalization. But most people you know you don’t even know what religion they are. It’s only the ones that go around preaching and what not that you know is a christian…..so i really do apologise to all those christians that live only their own lives. this is only for those christians out their ignore their own lives and try to live those around them.
Oh and one last thing why is evil the absence of light? why isnt good the abscence of bad?
Titan: Humans can’t even get along with one another now that the bible is here, what makes you think humans were getting along before it?
To address your second point: there are only a finite number of directions I can face at any given time. Also, decision trees are normalized, which means that actions which lead to the same end point are collapsed into a single branch.
As for your third point, it’s probably better if you read Proof’s reply on it (on an earlier post). It’s explained there better than I can. The gist of it is, if I can prove God mathematically, then he ceases being God and is therefore useless to us.
You say you have no problem with Christians enjoying their faith. That’s great. For that to be really true though, you can’t have a problem with Christians preaching, because it’s part of our way of life. Either you accept us or you don’t. Lastly, please understand that we don’t do it because we feel superior in any way. When you swear, as in your example, we don’t correct you because we’re morally superior, we’re correcting you because we’re defending a loved one. I don’t go around insulting your parents, so please don’t insult mine. I realize that’s asking a lot of someone who doesn’t believe God exists, but if you claim to truly accept Christians, then you have to respect our belief that he does.
I just reviewed my last post and just wanted to clarify: I’m not saying atheists have a problem respecting other people’s parents. I’m saying it’s hard to respect someone’s parent when you don’t think that parent exists. Sorry for the confusion.
I would like to commend many of the posters here, Christian and Athiest alike, for their thoughts and opinions. The path to knowledge lies in the depths of discussion and challenging that which you believe or do not believe.
For myself, I consider myself a Christian, but much like many of the more enlightened posters who are starting to rear their heads. I do not prescribe to the WASP mentality, I can barely stomach going to church, and Jesus lies paramount in my life, not christianity as it is now. There are many things I would like to say, but many of these topics have been covered already (Vonya, Proof, etc as of late). Simplified:
1) Bad things happen to good people because we are not robots. We make decisions, and from those decisions come repercussions, both good and bad.
2) Miracles exist. How many times in a year, especially considering the dawn of the information age (internet, Media, etc) do you hear of something that is either unexplainable or just absolutely amazing? How many times do you hear about “the exception to the rule”? These are instances that defy science and cannot be explained within our understanding, which may lead them to be…. miracles?
*note* Miracles in the Bible are actually quite tame compared to some of the things we hear about daily if you really think about it…
3) As mentioned by others, those many of you would consider “Christians” mimic the Pharisees far more than they do the teachings of Christ. History lesson here: Jesus was killed by the Pharisees, or at least the political parties that were closely linked to them. Slightly ironic, but I guess thats how it goes. The moral of the story? It was the two-faced, hypocritical, rule-mongering theocrats (much like the ones we see today) that were the ones who killed Jesus, not those who followed his word.
I would feel bad posting without bringing something to the table as well to discuss. Here’s a new one: Welcome to Hell. Its right next door to Candyland, and across the Street from Endor (yes, the lush forest home of the Ewoks). In other words, It doesn’t exist. At least, not in the way its been sold to us over the past 1000+ years. The bible is rife with imagery (which even the great Billy Graham now admits) and cannot be taken literally. True study of the Bible is about taking the teachings inside and finding whats applicable to your life, situation, and culture. If you look at Jesus’ teachings, those who defy a life of love and generosity and lead a self-serving and spiteful life instead will not be thrown into a pit of sulphur or be raped up the bum by Adolph Hitler, like many would suggest. Hell can be most purely defined as isolation. It means that your spiritual being will exist beyond your death, but not in communion with others. Instead, you will be alone. Hell was invented by the catholic church in order to fill the coffers after lackluster attendance swept europe. Fear can do wonders.
My point in writing this is to demonstrate to many of those who persecute our beliefs that not all is what you assume, or what you’ve been “preached”. If you were to take a purely academic and historical approach to who Jesus actually was, and what he said in contextual terms, I think you would see a different side to “religion” that you may not see now. The face of Jesus has been spit on by those who say they love him, and unfortunately, we have a generation of people who no longer trust anything to show for it. That’s my two cents anyways….
PS One small question for the athiests: If we have evolved from single-cell microbes (and i’m not ruling that out… science and theory can exist hand in hand with a metaphysical/spiritual all-powerful being, and I consider much of our physical history to be exactly as we have scored it…), How did such asexual (or dividing cell) organisms suddenly mutate, intuitively, to become sexual beings? How did it just “work out” that there was a male, and a female, to allow reproduction? Chance?
Two quick corrections:
Quote: It was the two-faced, hypocritical, rule-mongering theocrats (much like the ones we see today) that were the ones who killed Jesus, not those who followed his word.
Correction: Didn’t mean to imply that anyone was assuming it was those who followed Jesus that killed him, I purely meant to point the finger at those who did.
Quote: Billy Graham being Great
Correction: I know Billy Graham in his prime was no more than an instrument of the American Government and may have destroyed his legacy by playing into the political world as much as he did. Regardless, he’s an icon and his views have changed quite dramatically in his older age, from what i’ve read.
Humans can’t even get along with one another now that the bible is here, what makes you think humans were getting along before it?
Im not saying that thy did get along, in fact i think it has been proven that war existed back then to. But my point was that the ….ah…ethics, in the bible were common long before the bible existed.
there are only a finite number of directions I can face at any given time.
Well no thats a bit obvious, In fact theres only one at a given time. Thats a perticular moment in time. The fact of the matter is that if u draw a straight line out from the direction ur facing then turn a 1mm to the left and draw another line out, one meter from your body, or the start of the line, will ma a uge gap between the two lines. But if you turn .5 of a mm to the right and draw a line u will go inbetween the other to lines, and if u keep turning ever so slightly, going smaller and smaller you’ll find there is always an ever soooooo slight amount you can move. To put it into time it is impossiable to show…as therer are inifite directions it would take…infinte time to try…..
it’s probably better if you read Proof’s reply on it
What i said was in reply to Proof’s reply thanx mate. My point is that just becasue you understand it does not make in useless. Also 1+0=1 is a very basic idea, it is the function of building blocks for all the other maths that he was involved in. Are you saying that god is a basic function and that once we understand him we can disregard him to understand bigger more complex things?!?
Ahh and to the last and the one point i was sooo hoping you would bring up. If i was truly respecting others beliefs (in this case christianity) then i would allow christians to preach in peace, and would watch what i say about god. Well thats all well and good, but how about these apples. I DO NOT believe in god. He doesnt exist, u say my farther in heaven, i say my farther in the kitchen. The idea that god exists goes against my faith in the lack of existence of god. So when was the last time a christian was sensitive about my beliefs??? Their preaching is going against everything i believe in. What makes me think that i’m more considerate of SOME christians than they are of me is that i never correct their way of thinking, nore to i tell them their beliefs are wrong. Instead of christians saying atheists should be more considerate of saying ‘blasphemist’ things, maybe christians should consider the fact that their not respecting our beliefs by preaching and correcting me based on their beliefs.
I believe in only 1 out of the 16 myths about atheists. Atheists are arrogant. Very true, but then again, excessively pious (“brainwashed”) theists are arrogant as well.
The only difference seems to be that theists try to impose their beliefs onto non-believers. But that too can be justified, because they believe that the wrath of god(s?) will be upon non-believers (eternal damnation, etc). So try to understand, they try to convert you because they care. Because they don’t want you to burn in hell forever. Which is a nice thought, regardless of the logic (or lack of?) behind it.
So atheists, arrogant, yes. But theists are arrogant too.
Attempts at converting non-believers are done out of concern. Logically founded or not, it’s a good intention.
Peace!
Titan:
In a previous post, you said “But humanity was getting along before the bible was their”
Now you’re saying:
“Im not saying that thy did get along, in fact i think it has been proven that war existed back then to.”
Please make up your mind. Either they did or they didn’t.
As for decision trees: Like I said before, decision trees are normalized. Your life is made of critical junctions, or what we sometimes refer to as defining moments. Other than these branching points, your life follows a pretty predictable pattern.
Understanding God does not make him useless, but proving him mathematically does. You’re confusing the two concepts. There is a big difference.
As for your final point, Jo-N pretty much made my point for me (Thanks for that, btw, Jo-N)
Titan: I’ve looked at your arguments and see a flaw. You say the decision tree is infinite, but it can’t be because people don’t live forever, which means time is not infinite as far as their decision trees are concerned, therefore their decision trees are not infinite. Put it another way, there are only so many decisions we can make in the time given to us.
Titan: I like you cause you’re a sharp thinker. And I can understand your frustration with “Christians” who beat you if you swear or curse or don’t believe what they do etc. But Let’s take a general look at both sides of the story. An Athiest has no reason to preach, convince or debate. Why? An Anthiest is convinced that there is nothing more. No reward, no punnishment, no conclusion and no judge. (I am not an athiest, so I must now ask: am I correct in the preceding assumptions?) Now believing this means that the same thing happens to all people reguardless of belief. So believe what you want and I’ll believe what I want cause it really doesn’t matter. Now a Christian on the other hand has this dilema: A christian truly, TRULY believes that there is a consequence or reward awaiting all people depending on their choice to believe or not. If they do not believ this then they are not truly Christian. So now there is a reason to preach, convince and debate. THe reason should be love. When an athiest debates the only thing at stake is pride. “I wanna be right, just because i don’t wanna be wrong….but it doesn’t really matter who’s right in the end.” But a true Christian has another motive: “I wanna preach so that all may see reward in the end, rather than a consequence too large to bear.” A true Christian debates, preaches, or speaks out of a true Love based upon the core of his/her beliefs. Now the problem arises when a Christian forgets this love and preaches out of pride. Sadly, there are many that do. The preaching becomes that of the people that might anger you–”You cannot say those words in church, at a restaurant, in your home or mine because I’m right despite what you believe!!”
In preaching, Christians must not forget that there is nothing they can say to change the mind or heart of an Athiest. When that is forgotten, all hell breaks loose and arguments flare. But when the true attitudes of Christ are employed, people can love. Mark 3 in the Bible (and I’m not preaching to you now…just making my point) says that Jesus called to Him those he wanted. And it lists his twelve disciples. Now to a Christian who believes that Jesus is God, that means he/she also believes he knew everything past/preasent/future about the ones he called–the ones he WANTED. The last on the list is Judas the betrayer. Jesus knew Judas would probably never get it. Jesus knew that he would betray him for money; Jesus knew he’d never truly believe who Jesus is. But Jesus wanted him anyway. So Jesus called him. And Jesus spoke to him, and Jesus spent three years with him. That is to be the attitude of Christians who preach. I can’t change your mind, I know you may never believe the same thing, I know you may even be the one to kill me; but I love you…so I want you to know the way.
I am a Christian, but I am quite different from the mainstream churches out there that care only about filling seats and the collection plates on sunday mornings. In fact one of my best friends in the whole world hates god if there is one and is very open in cursing him. I spent 2 hours with him one night for dinner as he cursed and told me how I only like him cause i think someday he will believe what I’m saying and be a carbon copy of me. He condemned me saying that I’m always thinking he’s going to hell cause he’s a bad person. After the two hours of his ranting and my silence listening, I basically told him, that no matter what he believes I love him. Not because of what he believes or sayss or does, but because he’s my friend. I desperately desire that maybe he’ll not suffer consequences in the end, but that is not for me to decide. I can simply love him and say what I believe. Is that arrogant? I suppose, but it’s love. And it’s the only way I know how to love. So he and I remain friends, and I continue to love him despite his choice.
The thing is that I cannot change what I believe based on inconvenience. For example, if I believe that Jesus is the way, then I can’t make exceptions just because my friends don’t follow him. In that case, I might as well invent a religion and call it scientistologicality. The hardest thing for me to know is not why a God allows bad things to happen, but that there is a God and my dearest closest friend doesn’t want Him.
“Im not saying that thy did get along, in fact i think it has been proven that war existed back then to.”
Ok so i do apogoise as i wrote this…unclearly. Let me rephrase it, im not saying that there wasn’t war before the bible, but humanity was still getting along. In fact although it’s a pretty flimsy connection, the wars didn’t escalate to things like World War 2 until AFTER the bible was about. Though im not saying the bible is the cause for this….im just saying.
I’ve looked at your arguments and see a flaw. You say the decision tree is infinite, but it can’t be because people don’t live forever
I see where your going with this but this but youst remember that a choice is a decision made in a single moment in time. And if you freeze time their is an infinte amount of choiced. Then you move time a fraction and you have another infinte amount of choices. But don’t forget like the universe is infinte so must time be. To say time is not infinte is to say god will die, and thus is not immortal.
your life follows a pretty predictable pattern
So if its predictable…..then god knows the future..of if he is making assumptions then eventualy he has to be wrong….so god makes mistakes…..Which follows my earlier logic that where his is one mistakes…their are more
but Titan, your logic now and your earlier logic (alongside my logic and all others’ logics) have this single flaw: they are all human logic. If God is truly God, then he should not be bound by our logic. And, following my earlier logic if He IS bound by our logic, He is not truly god.
We often assume that if a god exists, then we can know everything about him, and that he must have mistakes because bad things happen, or he must be a jerk because he lets those bad things happen….but if we could understand him fully, he would not be God. A God is something that is not bound by human boundaries–including the boundaries of imagination, logic, knowledge, and understanding. By definition, we cannont define God. Logically, we cannot apply our logic to him. Through intelligence, we cannot know all about him. That is why so much of Christianity is based upon faith. We acknowledge that our knowledge has boundaries we can never surpass.
Ah so here is a very good point. Let’s say i was agnostic and not an athiest. If their is a god, then he would not be bound by our mortal logic. In fact unless at some point in time the odds of him having our human logic is basically impossiable. So how can a christian EVER say it is what god wanted? If god truly exists then why would he so obviously interfere with our mortal lives? Why would he make himself known? And yes once again i am applying mortal logic to show the inconsitency’s in christian logic, but ANY argument a christian can put forward is applying human logic to god as well.
The diffrence is that by using human logic we can show that it is more probable that he dsnt exist, or that if he does, he does not follow christian beliefs. Who’s to say god is not a higher plan of existence that an earlier race acended to…in which case there is many “gods”.
if He IS bound by our logic, He is not truly god.
So you could also say that if we could understand him he would not be god.
So we take this further, is we can understand anything he says he would not be god, as otherwise he would share logic with our mortal minds.
But this does not go back to the whole 16 Myths, and although i keep going way of topic the one thing i have been trying to make clear is that their ARE christians out there that bitch and winge that athiests do not respect their religon, yet they don’t seem to respect mine. At least i don’t force my beliefs on them.
The atheist who said that atheists really…really… really
don’t beieve there is a God is wrong.
God said in Psalms 14.1 that the fool SAYS not believes can certainly not knows, but he SAYS
in his heart….( which Jeremiah said is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.)
there is no God.
So looking at what God said and what the atheists say makes the atheists wrong.
The atheist knows there is a God, but he simply SAYS there is no God.
He only SAYS it, but God didn’t say he believed it or knew it.
Is it possible for a mass murderer, right before his execution, to convert himself so that he’s Christian and avoid going to hell?
The atheist who said that atheists really…really… really
don’t beieve there is a God is wrong.
WTF?!?!? Now where to start on THIS ONE.
So if i really really don’t believe in god am i right? is it only if i really…really… really don’t believe in god that i am wrong? is it becasue you said really three times that makes the diffrence?!?
Ok so getting away from that and going towards seriousness, your logic would only apply if i believed in the bible….thus god…and if i did that i would not be an atheist….maybe you should look uip the word agnostic?
Let’s reverse that logic for a second, a wise athiest once said that a christian that says he really…really… really belives in god is wrong. He said christians know their is no god, they just SAY there is.
Is it possible for a mass murderer, right before his execution, to convert himself so that he’s Christian and avoid going to hell?
Well according to christian logic you can. Hell im fairly sure that if your catholic you get a second chance at purgatory to repent.
Titan: Well according to christian logic you can. Hell im fairly sure that if your catholic you get a second chance at purgatory to repent.
Well then. I don’t really see any point of Christianity then. If you can do whatever sin you like and still go to heaven as long as you are “forgiven” by god, then what’s the point of the morals and teachings from the Bible. Christians do crummy things everyday, regardless of their beliefs, and they know that they can ask for forgiveness. If the Bible said, “commit three sins and your out of heaven for sure,” then maybe most Christians wouldn’t be such hypocrits. They would actually fear going to hell.
I am God
Here here. I’ve been called a hypocrit, but at leasts my beliefs are not based on a contradiction.
Atheists have had millenniums to prove there
is no God, thus in the process of proving, they would control
the world.
In the meantime, theists have been running things.
Theists literally control the world
and they have controlled
it since the dawn of time.
To me this is proof that the theist
knows something the atheist does not know.
What is that knowledge?
How to run the world with theism.
Non-atheist bjo: Yes, for a time, the whole world thought the Earth was at the center of the universe and that the Moon was a God. Theism may have been ruling the world, but not one particular religion. And it’s logical to say that theists rule the world because their beliefs give them an answer to things that are unknown. Only in the last century has science grown so much that we are now able to explain many types of phenomenons. In the next century or so, the atheist population will grow much more as more unknowns are answered and people start to realize that there the scientific method is a better way to prove stuff than just quoting the Bible.
Also i’d like to point out that the egyptians ruled the world for a while…so should we believe that there are many gods and that cats gaurd the underworld??
Im fairly sure ancienct greek had a good tur on its own…..so cerebrus (The three headed dog that gaurds the gates of hell) is real??
And as this is a christian verus atheist myth forum, should i remind you that catholics controlled more of the world that christians did….so….that would make….christians …wrong?
Oh and let’s never forget that the largest current religion is Hinduism….So currently it is right to believe that there are MILLIONS of gods, im fairly sure i’ve read somewhere like 300million in fact, and that their are 3 main gods. Interesting. Also they believe in reincarnation….which makes heaven and hell…….non-existant….. To say that whoever there are the most of, or whoever has control is right…..is beyond stupidity.
I refer to the United States,which literally
is the leader of the world, as you must know.
America is a theist nation.
Atheists have never offered proof of their “there is no God” statement.
It has always been just talk.
Theists quote the Bible because the Bible
contains the word of God, what he says literally goes,
stands, endures and produces results.
There will never come a time when atheists rule.
This notion is biologically impossible, not to mention scientifically absurd.
Russia tried to rule with atheism, but failed finally. It was Gorbachev who said that it was atheism
that caused their problems.
TITAN said;To say that whoever there are the most of, or whoever has control is right…..is beyond stupidity
Call it what you want, the fact remains that theists
control everything in the world and they will decide what goes.
Everything you have was invented by a theist, made by a theist.
Egypt was then, but it not now as it was.
After Moses, the world took a different direction.
Monotheism.
Hinduism is not a religion, but a way of life,which way of life
has not produced a existence which is consistent with order and progress.
America, the theist nation leads the way in all things.
Catholics or Christians, the point here is that all
Catholics and Christians know there is a God.
I man I don’t even KNOW where to start with that. FIRSTLY Hinduism IS a religon. I have no idea what makes you think that it isn’t.
“Atheists have never offered proof of their “there is no God” statement.”
Now i have tried very hard to be polite on this website, but WTF?!? i mean where have you been this last decade? We have proven that the bible makes mistakes, we have proven that evolution is 70% more likly than creationism. We have proved plenty of things in the bible wrong. So by doing that we have proved things about christianity wrong. Enough to undermine christianity to a degree.
Remind me for a second what PROOF you can offer about christianity? Oh thats right…nothing. It’s entirly based on faith. Kinda reminds me or suicide cults. I wouldn’t be surpirsed if thats how christianity started, except that everyone wussed out of killing themselves. So there you have it i have put forward a theory, now i want YOU to prove it wrong. If christianity is the ruling force behind out world im sure you will have no problem with it at all.
Egypt was then, but it not now as it was.
Ignoring the obvious grammatical mistakes that make this hard to understand, by that logic, in a little while when christianity is old news someone will sit their going chrisitanity was then, satanicism is now.
After Moses, the world took a different direction. Monotheism.
Once again as christians are a minority compared to Hinduism, and Hinduism has millions of gods…..well i assume u can put 2 and 2 together, if not let me know and ill be sure to help you out.
Hinduism is not a religion, but a way of life
Smell the coffee, hell smell reality, so is ALL RELIGON. Religion in its simplist form is a set of beliefes to live ones life by.
There will never come a time when atheists rule.
This notion is biologically impossible
Well based on your comments so far, and your obviously high intelligence level, im not even going to ASK how the F*CK you came to that conclusion.
So I think I have explained my point
Non-atheist bjo: you are one of the most narrow-minded Christians on this message board.
“Theists quote the Bible because the Bible
contains the word of God, what he says literally goes”
- That’s like saying, Darth Vader will exist because it was in the Star Wars Movie.
“There will never come a time when atheists rule.
This notion is biologically impossible, not to mention scientifically absurd.”
- Scientifically absurd, a Christian using science to combat science. LOLOLOLOL!!!!
“It was Gorbachev who said that it was atheism that caused their problems.”
- Christianity and its various forms has caused MILLIONS to die and be prosecuted. Blacks were made slaves because of the Bible, the Vatican and all that jazz, etc.
“Hinduism is not a religion, but a way of life,which way of life
has not produced a existence which is consistent with order and progress.”
- How many people do you know are both Hindu and Christian? Hinduism is a religion, like Buddhism and etc.
“America, the theist nation leads the way in all things.”
- Your logic is flawed. You think that ‘if the most powerful people believe in God, then it MUST be true.’ No offense, but that’s as ignorant as one can get. First you say, ‘Egypt was then, but it not now as it was.’ How is the past so much different than the present? You are totally ignoring history with your argument. Does that mean only the current religion held by the most powerful nation is valid? What if in a hundred years, Christianity becomes the most popular religion, but is no longer believed by the most powerful nation. Take an IQ test and get back to me. I want to see if God really blessed you with the gift of reason.
- Scientifically absurd, a Christian using science to combat science. LOLOLOLOL!!!!
THIS IS WHY IT IS POINTLESS TO TALK TO ATHEISTS.
THEY RESORT TO RIDICULE AND MADNESS AS ILLUSTRATED IN THE ABOVE STATEMENT.
KNOCK YOURSELF OUT.
You have nothing else to fall on except being mean and vicious.
I STAND BY WHAT I SAID..ATHEISM’s statement THERE IS NO GOD IS A meaningless without proof
STATEMENT
WITH NEVER ANY EVIDENCE BY THE ATHEISTS IN MILLENIUMS TO PROVE THEIR ‘THERE IS NO GOD.” STATEMENT.
ATHEISM IS NOT A BELIEF, BUT A MERE STATMENT.
THEISTS RULE AND ATHEISTS CAN’T DO A THING ABOUT IT.
“THIS IS WHY IT IS POINTLESS TO TALK TO ATHEISTS.
THEY RESORT TO RIDICULE AND MADNESS AS ILLUSTRATED IN THE ABOVE STATEMENT.”
-Speak for yourself. The only reason I said that is because what you said as “scientifically absurd” is pretty damn absurd itself. Biologically and scientifically impossible at atheism can be true? Those are the means by which atheists use to prove their origin as opposed to a freakin’ book. As far as I am concerned, Christianity is BIOLOGICALLY impossible. A super powerful being creating man from clay or wutever and just creating the world with his thought. That’s more of a fairytale than something that can be biologically proven. You just have to read any biology textbook to look for proof that There is no God. The Bible is contradicted MANY times by what has been discovered. Scientists don’t need to prove that GOD himself doesn’t exist, they just need to prove that the Bible is false because if the words are by God himself and they are proved wrong, then either God is a 4 year old kid that really can’t write things too accurately or there is no God and it’s just some bum who wrote the Bible THINKIGN that there was a God but hasn’t proved it himself. Anyways, I won’t waste any more time arguing with you. You make a bad name for Christianity by your horrible arguing and reasoning skills.
I STAND BY WHAT I SAID..ATHEISM’s statement THERE IS NO GOD IS A meaningless without proof
Ok so first things first, drop by a computer store and get that caps lock button fixed, it really does make it hard to read.
Second i would like to thankyou for proving some of these myths exist. Chekov was making wonderful thought out arguments using plenty of examples, you on the other hand are repeating the same thing over and over again without even attempting to prove your point. Your making out job easier and Chekov job harder. Also it’s hard to say that were just reducing ourselves to insults. I am not insulting you as a christian im insulting you as a human, i assure you. Please feel free to go over my other posts, i really am not insulting christanity.
Now here’s the other point i wanted to make, and keep im mind i am assuing you completly ignored my last post:
We athiests have proven that their are mistakes in the bible. We have proven that the bible is full of contradiction, we have proven that the churches mis-interpret, and we have proven that christans can offer NO proof. So far we have proven plenty of things about christanity wrong, and i put forward to you the same question i asked earlier, prove to me god exists. As the lack of existance is the most likly answer, it’s your job to prove that the least likly is the correct one.
THEY RESORT TO RIDICULE AND MADNESS
So let me get this straight, your telling me their is some higher being, that you can’t prove, have never meet, have never physically interacted with. Your only proof of this higher being is a book written and re-written and re-written so many times that the meanings have been ocmpletly lost and twisted, a book written by other humans mind you, and you worship this ‘magical invisible omni-present being’ and trust your life into it…….and im the one overcome with madness……..
Oh i’m sorry about double posting but i forgot this one key fact:
THIS IS WHY IT IS POINTLESS TO TALK TO ATHEISTS.
THEY RESORT TO RIDICULE AND MADNESS AS ILLUSTRATED IN THE ABOVE
Now if you would be so kind as to go over my post and of cource I Am God’s post you will notice that not once did we take a shot at christians, sure we may have ridiculed your logic, but that hardly makes me….ah…religist. You, however, as an obvious christian, or at least thiest, have in fact generalised and ridiculed athiests.
So my friend i am assuming you are a christian because much like the bible you have now been hypocritical and contradicted yourself.
No matter what you say, the point
is the theists literally control the world.
Obviously theists know things atheists do not know.
The proof is in the pudding.
Atheists have never been able to prove their statememnt,
this is why they are not taken seriously.
Your anger and profanity is typical of atheists
response. Always it is ridicule, profanity, name calling.
Science doesn’t support atheism, if it did, atheists could
prove atheism, but as it stands theists beginning with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob
have managed
to convince the world there is a God and the world has acted accordingly.
Okay so thiests have ruled the world for centuries, and have had all the resources at their disposal to prove that they are right…..and still have not come up with a single shread of proof. They can’t even prove that their precious bible hasn’t been tampered with.
However we athiests have proven that the bible has mistakes, contradictions, plenty of passages are open to interpretation, and that it has most likly been mis-copied….think the worlds largest game or chinese whispers.
Non-atheist bjo: Always it is ridicule
You just don’t get it do you. Your saying we athiests are ridiculing everything, and yet all myself and I Am God is doing is ridiculing you. And we admit it, we admit we’re doing it. You, however, are ridiculing all atheists and making generalisations, the same ones your accusing us of making! Don’t you see, your entire arguent is proving what we are saying to be true. You are ridiculing atheists and saying we can never rule, becasue were stupid as we don’t know something. Your saying we all generalise and that we insult everything…yet if you take the time to read the last 15-20 posts, you’ll see that all i am insulting is your arguemnt as it is insulting us. Go look at my posts to Chevok, and their replies, notice how nicly they are written? Go look through all my posts, the only person i am insulting is you as your saying stupid things like:
“Theists literally control the world”
-Yet they can’t convince most of the world that they are right….
“Atheists have never offered proof of their “there is no God” statement.”
-We have offered plenty of proof that the bible is wrong, mean while as your religon is based on the words of a book, and since you’ve had just as long to prove your story, would you mind proving to me that your right?
“Theists quote the Bible because the Bible contains the word of God”
-Once again let’s direct the stupidity of that to the Darth Vadar exists because it’s written somewhere.
“There will never come a time when atheists rule.This notion is biologically impossible”
-Your trying to tell me that somewhere is our DNA we are forced to be athiest?!?!? And since we are Athiest we can not rule becasue we are inferior? Let’s ignore the fact that your insulting and ridiculing atheists all over the world, but Lets PRETEND your correct….Since god creates us…..and e creates out DNA….he decides what religon we are…or arn’t and thus decides what control we have over the world…So your contradicint every chrisitan post that has said that we have free will. According to you it’s all decided.
“not to mention scientifically absurd”
-Loving the fact that a religous person is trying to tell me that scientifically an athiest is inferior to a theist.
“Everything you have was invented by a theist,”
-Go on, prove it. Prove to me that EVERY invetion and discovery was by a theist. Prove to me that the cave man that discovered fire was a theist.
“Hinduism is not a religion, but a way of life”
-Chrisitanity is not a religon, but a way of life.
“has not produced a existence which is consistent with order and progress”
-Oh but thiests have? You mean all those wars caused by theists was order? You alreadys said that all the world is controlled by theists, which means that all wars are caused by theists. So we have theists to thank for World War 1 & 2? Oh I can see how christians going about burning people on the basis of they are witches was great progress in human development. Yet you want to claim that Hinduism is worse? Maybe if atheists where in power all over the world we wouldn’t be having these pointless wars. Did you think about that?
“Catholics and Christians know there is a God.”
- Yeah and Hindu’s KNOW their are about 300Million gods. And Athiests know their arn’t gods. And Anceient Greeks knew they’re were dozens of gods….See where this is going? Since in an earlier post you implied that whoeer has the most people believeing it, are right….That means their’s either no gods, or 300 Million. Take your pick, either way your wrong.
“I STAND BY WHAT I SAID..ATHEISM’s statement THERE IS NO GOD IS A meaningless without proof”
- I stand by what i said, thiests statment that there is a god is meaningless without proof.
“Science doesn’t support atheism, if it did, atheists could prove atheism”
-OMG, we have proven athiesm, by disproving the others. Yet the world you supposidly control, the world created by your god, still can’t provide the science to prove your right.
Their most of the stupid things you’ve said. So how are we meant to take you seriously?
Right on!
Whether you take me seriously or not, it is a seeable fact, a truth, it is reality that theists do lead the world and do run things.
It is all about what theists think, do and say in this world.
This is not an athiest world, it never will be.
When I said, it is biologically impossible for atheists to rule, it is because theists are being born every minute.
And for the last time, for thosuands of years, atheists have never, not even once beena ble to overcome the power theists have, that power which leads the world.
As for science; for starters, the Bible teaches in Genesis about seed-time and harvest that everything produces after its kind. It is also in the Bible that things decay and grow old, not improve as evolution teaches..
Evolution erroneously teaches that invisilbe intangible time is a magic wand that makes things happen over billions of years.(for no reason)
Science shows even to a child that time has no magic power to make anything appear from nothing.
Before Genesis one, there was no time. Time came into existence when IN THE BEGINNING….this is time.
The stars and sun and moon were given by God for signs and seasons; this is recorded in Genesis.
Time is measured by what God set in the sky.
Right now, if you didn’t have clocks and calenders, you would have no idea what time it is, but then time is what we call it by our measurements, but this measurement began after Genesis one.
Any evolutionist that says he knows what took place before Genesis one is wrong. He was not there, and has NO written documents to support his claim. It is a theory. Hearsay.
The Bible is an ancient and reliable document. Atheists must place their hand upon it if they ever need to testify in theists’ courtrooms in the US and they are all theist courtrooms. It is a theist world. God wanted this.
This is why I am a theist. I decided to be on the ruling side of things.
Non-atheist bjo: When I said, it is biologically impossible for atheists to rule, it is because theists are being born every minute.
-Well that would make it mathematically impossiable not biologically. Also it’s a fact that the number of athiests is growing faster than christians. In fact the fastest growing religon is Hindousim. But as it’s a “way of life” not a religon, i belive that would make athiesm the fastest growing belief.
Non-atheist bjo: for thosuands of years, atheists have never, not even once beena ble to overcome the power theists have, that power which leads the world.
-For thousands of years women had no rights, does that mean that they are wrong to want them? Since they something was wrong for thousands of years does that now make it right? Im sure pro-slavery people were arguing the same thing to the people against slavery “Slavery has been here for thousands of years and their’s nothing you can do about it…”
Non-atheist bjo: It is all about what theists think, do and say in this world.
Saying that becasue alot of the decisions are made by thiests, clearly it’s becasue they are thiest that they get to make those desicions is moronic. That’s like saying “Because 99% of the worlds decisions are made by people that drive cars, clearly the fact that they drive cars is what gives them the right and power to make those decisions.” Your taking to subsets of information and trying to force them to overlap. The fact of the matter alot of the decisions being made these days are made without religous biastism…(I know that’s not a word)
Non-atheist bjo: It is also in the Bible that things decay and grow old, not improve as evolution teaches..
Ah but the bible says that humans are to improve themselves, yet your saying we can’t do it. AND if we can do it at a mental level why not at a physical level?
Non-atheist bjo: Evolution erroneously teaches that invisilbe intangible time is a magic wand that makes things happen over billions of years.(for no reason)
Oh but the theory that a OMNI-present, ALL powerful, ALL knowing diety, that had no way to get their, just was, and then proceeded to create life and a world for absoultly no reason other than A) he was bored, OR B) he wants to be worshipped, is NOT ‘magical’?
Non-atheist bjo: Science shows even to a child that time has no magic power to make anything appear from nothing.
- Ok im confused now, are you arguing for us athiests, or for the thiests? because your now saying that god can’t exist…Otherwise something created him…but what created god’s creator? Your damn right things can’t just appear. But you want to tell me that god created the world animals plants etc out of nothing?? Please pick a side and argue that one side.
Non-atheist bjo: Before Genesis one, there was no time. Time came into existence when IN THE BEGINNING….this is time.
-You do realise that your arguing that this is a fact becasue it is written in a book. And of cource your saying that the book is fact becasue it says so……think about that for a minute….
Non-atheist bjo: The stars and sun and moon were given by God for signs and seasons; this is recorded in Genesis.
-Once again, this is the same book here, ever heard of fiction? Lieing even?
Non-atheist bjo: Any evolutionist that says he knows what took place before Genesis one is wrong. He was not there, and has NO written documents to support his claim. It is a theory. Hearsay.
-Oh come of your high horse, you have no written documents, you have a god damn book of short stories that has been put through the worlds largest game of chinese whispers. And you want to tell me that out theory is hearsay?!?
Non-atheist bjo: The Bible is an ancient and reliable document.
-Oh i’m not going to argue against this, I’m just quoting it so that if anyone reads this post they understand what i’m dealing with,
Non-atheist bjo: theists must place their hand upon it if they ever need to testify in theists’ courtrooms in the US and they are all theist courtrooms. It is a theist world. God wanted this.
- Yes i do recall the passage “And in the America’s though shall rest ye’ hand on bible and swear in thy name to not lie about the traffic violation” Yeah your right i’m fairly sure that was in their somewhere, maybe it got taken out in one of it’s many reprints. Still though it does make it damn easy for us Athiests to lie in court, so i have no issues with it.
Non-atheist bjo: This is why I am a theist. I decided to be on the ruling side of things
-Man you better hope your god doesn’t have cable, cos if he reads that he might be pisssssed. So your saying your going on whoever is on the winning side. So if you were around in 1915 when Germany was winning the war, you would have switched your nationality over to german and become a Nazi? Becasue that’s what your saying right their.
Woops i forgot to post my name, wouldn’t want you to not be able to know who to reply to. Sorry about using the diffrent computer. That’s why it wasn’t saved in
I was struck by how the originating post on Atheism closely follows the world perspective of the ancient Greeks, from which the progress and success of our western civilization developed, including Renaissance and Enlightenment thought, the latter being the foundation of the United States’ system of government and value system; several of the founding fathers were agnostics, and none were as radical as the evangelicals of today. These “atheist” ideas are not radical ideas, but rather the result of, and a celebration of, highly reasoned human minds trying to make sense of the world as it is. The Greeks saw this human effort as our highest tribute to, and an inheritance from, a higher order of being possibly responsible for the elegance we see in the observable world, but ultimately unknowable to us. My question is, why are so many people so threatened by this? Is it because they are so consumed by fear and uncertainty in this transitionary era that they will grab at anything, no matter how irrational, in order to function?
It is mentioned in various places on the internet that there are 4200 different religions. The difference between a Christian and an athiest is that the Christian believes that the followers of 4199 of them are deluded whereas the athiest thinks that the followers of 4200 of them are deluded – so they are 99.976% in agreement!
[quote comment="3704"]It is mentioned in various places on the internet that there are 4200 different religions. The difference between a Christian and an athiest is that the Christian believes that the followers of 4199 of them are deluded whereas the athiest thinks that the followers of 4200 of them are deluded – so they are 99.976% in agreement![/quote]
Loved this one!
I’d have to agree with Pedro that was a pretty good call
I am a Christian, but I agree with you as far as the myths are concerned. I’ve had to shake a few of these off myself, as I am currently engaged to an atheist. Being with him has been extremely eye opening, although I have not abandoned my faith. However, I think that a lot of Christians miss the mark when it comes to their beliefs. I won’t say there are a lot of myths concerning Christian’s views toward those of other faiths, or those who have none, because that just isn’t the case. Most of the Christian’s I’ve encountered are very arrogant, narrow-minded people. If you read the Bible the way it’s intended, that is not the way Jesus intended us to behave. I just want to say, on behalf of my religion, that I’m sorry.
[...] 10- The problem of agnosticism, part 2 – it’s a “part 2″ (see below for part 1), but it’s perfectly readable on its own. Discusses the contradiction of being “agnostic” about Yahweh, but “atheist” about every other made-up deity. 9- Christian myths about Atheism: discussion – there were so many comments for the “16 Common Myths about Atheism” post (see below) that I had to close that thread and open a new one, or my web server would have been very, very angry at me. 8- The problem of Agnosticism – explores why agnostics are agnostic, and what’s wrong, in my opinion, with it. 7- How I’ve become an atheist – one of the oldest posts in Way of the Mind, this tells of my own “deconversion”, and links to a brilliant Douglas Adams interview 6- Why Atheism is not a religion – oddly enough, many people seem to think it is – in other words, that it requires as much “faith” as theism. This post shows why that is not the case. 5- Are the myths about atheists real or not? – after the popular “common myths” post, many people said I was creating “straw men” – in other words, the myths didn’t really exist. A simple search on Google News proved otherwise. 4- “Closed minds” Disputes the common (and unfortunate) belief that “being sure of something is closed-minded”. 3- Deism and Pantheism – a latecomer, this post describes those two not-very-well-known beliefs, whose proponents included the U.S. Founding Fathers and Albert Einstein. 2- Atheism: arrogance? – discusses why believing that 2+2 will still be 4 tomorrow isn’t “arrogant”. 1- 16 Common Myths about Atheists – A list of what many theists believe — wrongly — about atheists in general. No, we don’t sacrifice babies. We don’t even boil young goats in their mothers’ milk. [...]
I couldn’t help noticing the similarity between your original 16 Myths post and my multi-post series started in January of 2006 here: http://atheistrevolution.blogspot.com/index.html
vjack: sorry to say, I had never seen your blog before. It looks quite interesting, and you probably just got a new reader.
However, precisely because I had never read your blog before, I didn’t copy anything from you – or from the other “myths about atheists” lists I’ve since discovered.
A couple of days ago, Sam Harris himself wrote a similar list. Many of the myths appear in my own list… or, from what I see now, in yours. Did the author of “The End of Faith” steal content from us?
Of course not. The myths are common, after all…
From your replies to Myths 8 and 13, I suspect you may believe in another myth yourself: That no atheists believed in a non-physical soul, or in the possibility of some kind of life after (physical) death. In fact, this isn’t true; there’s certainly no neccessary connection between cartesian mind-body dualism and the belief in some kind of god; I guess people think so because Decartes tried to proof the existence of an immaterial soul and of god, but he did indeed “proof” the existence of the soul first, so it doesn’t depend on his belief in god. And you can certainly believe in many kinds of afterlife (like reincarnation, or “ghosts” as in Harry Potter) without believing in any kind of god.
Niki: to me, “atheism” includes “there is no such thing as the supernatural”. Other people may (and do) redefine the term…
[quote comment="6266"]Niki: to me, “atheism” includes “there is no such thing as the supernatural”. Other people may (and do) redifine the term…[/quote]
Then you probably make the word stronger than it is: It simply means that you believe god doesn’t exist (theos is god in greek IIRC). I think what you mean is physicalism (which says that everything real is physical), but that’s not the same thing, the one doesn’t entail the other.
No offense, but “for me atheism includes there is no such thing as the supernatural” is the same kind of reasoning as saying “for me, atheism includes ethical relativism”, or “for me, atheism includes immorality”. Some people believe it, but it’s still a myth…
I won’t say that everything real is physical; there are abstract concepts, emotions, and so on. But none of those is supernatural.
I will concede, though, that I may be “adding” to the original meaning of “atheism” here, though most uses I’ve seen of the word (including in books such as those by Sam Harris or Richard Dawkins) seem to agree with my own usage of the term: no gods, and no supernatural. Typically, no one who believes in, say, reincarnation, would describe him or herself as “atheist”.
vjack: I don’t know if you’ll read this, but… we were both wrong, in a way. No, I didn’t copy any myths from your blog, but I had visited it, because you had posted a comment here back in August! And I answered, and read your own list, then, but it was after I posted mine.
So, not only did you forget you had already commented here, but I forgot I had read your list before… weird. It must be old age or something…
To be honest, I’m not really familiar with the term “supernatural”, so I might well get it wrong.
Anyway, I have at least influential (although unorthodox) philosopher in mind (Peter Unger) who is definitely an atheist but still argues that each of us has an immaterial soul, and that it probably continues to exist after our our physical death (although, in his philosophy, it doesn’t experience much any more then, as it needs a physical mind to have experiences). There was even one philosopher (I think it was Chisholm) who claimed that we have a soul, but that it is an elementary particle. So, although the thought of having some kind of spooky soul might seem strange, that doesn’t mean it can only be encountered in the realm of religion.
[quote post="128"]Typically, no one who believes in, say, reincarnation, would describe him or herself as “atheist”.[/quote]
I guess the reason why this is rare is that you need some kind of explanation why there should be an afterlife, heaven, reincarnation, hades or whatever: It just seems so extremely unlikely. God is an excellent explanation for this (well, god is an excellent explanation for anything if you believe in him), so many reincarnation/afterlife/heaven-believers “need” god. But then again, something similar can be said for morality: god really is an explanation (or maybe a basis) for many christians’ morality; But that doesn’t mean morality can only be understood in a religious system.
i think atheists often end up believing in hard line materialism and this contradicts a lot of their rhetoric of freedom. its comlicated. the atheists i know are often pretty militant and have a quasi logical approach which i think often abuses many of their sacred ideas of rationalization. im speaking in general terms. because im rather frustrated in the dumbed down debate between the two factions. and well… organized religion and its evils which people rant about could be attributed to extremism as oposed to the entity(religion) itself sort of a dark side- an innate moral defect the Soviets were pretty secular and nationalism is often at the core of many conflicts. so in a rambling conclusion im a fence sitter and wish both sides would look at the implications of their reasoning on free will the idea of a mind v a body and the moral relativism that sort of springboards from the athiest view point.
I have to agree with Niki, Pedro. You’ve said yourself so often that atheism is simply the lack of belief in a God.
This also brings up (very tangentially, but an important point nonetheless) the point that atheism should be arrived at for the right (ie. rational) reasons, as a characteristic of critical thinking which spans further than just theism.
If, after reading this blog for a while, you’re still not convinced that I arrived at atheism through reason, instead of “faith”, I don’t know what else I could say to convince you.
As to the rest… as I replied to Niki, yes, atheism, technically, is simply the lack of belief in a god. But the reasons that lead (or should lead) one to atheism — not believing in extraordinary claims without extraordinary evidence, believing that, if reality and our beliefs differ, reality wins, and so on — should, in my view, also lead one away from any other supernatural, unprovable, evidence-less claims or explanations, including fairies, vampires, ghosts, reincarnation, an undetectable “immortal soul”, and so on.
If one arrives at atheism for the right (rational) reasons, as you say, then one should consider any supernatural claim exactly as the “there is a god” claim: with skepticism. Demanding evidence, and knowing that the burden of proof is on the side that claims those things exist.
An atheist who believes in an undetectable “immortal soul” is guilty of the same error that theists make when they believe in a god they’ve never seen and have no evidence for: wishful thinking. What else is there to suggest that such a “soul” exists? If it does exist, then science should, eventually, be able to detect it; if not, then it most likely isn’t there.
[quote post="128"]An atheist who believes in an undetectable “immortal soul” is guilty of the same error that theists make when they believe in a god they’ve never seen and have no evidence for: wishful thinking. What else is there to suggest that such a “soul” exists? If it does exist, then science should, eventually, be able to detect it; if not, then it most likely isn’t there.[/quote]
) will arrive at different conclusions than you have, especially when it comes to philosophical questions. You may well critisize other people’s positions, but then you should first read what their positions are, otherwise you’d become as stubborn (and boring) as a christian missionary. David Chalmers website provides an excellent list of 100% theology-free texts (well, at least most of them) on the subject, if you’re interested.
Sorry, but saying that anyone who uses reason should (accidentially?) come to the same philosophical beliefs you have is at least as arrogant as claiming that anyone who has ethical values/values life/can see beauty/has a brain must therefore believe in god. You’ll have to accept that people as smart and as rational as you (some of them even smarter
FWIW: Contemporary substance dualists usually arrive at this belief because they find explanations of mental phenomena, qualia or free will that materialism can provide unsatisfactory. To be fair, materialism has no real explanation of these things, just rough hints in what direction answers could be.
Also: What makes you believe that everything that exists can be discovered by (natural) sciences? This belief is highly unscientific, and about as unplausible as the belief in flying spagetti monsters! Just look at it from an evolutionary perspective: I assume birds have a conception of reality that’s quite ok for their purposes. Maybe it’s even so good (or maybe they’re so dumb) that they can’t see a single flaw in it. Well, that’s how evolution works: It doesn’t produce perfect miraculous creatures who can react to any situation perfectly, understand everything, and never fail in their reasoning. It merely produces organisms adequately adapted to their environment, adequate enough so that they can survive, but no more than that. What makes you think we are an exception to that rule, and can (even in principle) understand everything there is? I have no doubt that our conception of reality (including the theory of relativity, quantum physics, big bang, evolution…) is a lot more precise than the bird’s, but I have no illusions that we might be “the end of evolution” so close to perfection that our picture of reality must be the real thing. That might be wishful thinking on your part
[quote comment="6315"]If, after reading this blog for a while, you’re still not convinced that I arrived at atheism through reason, instead of “faith”, I don’t know what else I could say to convince you.
[/quote]
I didn’t say anything of the sort
Niki: Believing (or not) in vampires has to do with philosophy?
[quote post="128"]Niki: Believing (or not) in vampires has to do with philosophy?[/quote]
I’d say it’s not. What’s your point? I’ve never seen a vampire (unless I was watching TV) and I have no reason to believe they really exist. On the other hand, I am quite convinced that I exist and that I experience mental phenomena like “being in pain” or “looking at my computer screen”. That’s an important difference to vampires.
just a few quick comments on christians not being rational or following science
on dinosaurs- the word “dinosaur” did not appear until long after the bible, especially the old testament, was written. try leviathan some time
on the ark(Noah’s)- the species noah received into the ark would not have been around today. evolution(fundies don’t freak out) can occur. most christians agree nature can take away traits/genes most simply do not believe they can be created. For example dinosaurs became extinct because in the post flood world they could not find their niche. And as far as size goes (see ignorant athiest belief “you couldn’t fit dinos on an ark) dinosaur eggs are at largest the sizes of two or three basketballs stacked on top of each other.
fossils- lateral evolution(specialization) supports a fossil record and the abundant and large gaps in it.
creation/christianity has as much scientific backing and rational as atheism. for those of you don’t believe me see my friends: http://www.icr.org/research/
[...] A recent exchange of comments between me and Niki, starting with this one, has made me think about what “atheism” really means. [...]
you actually believe all that stuff about god being the eternal creator blablabla? i think all the stuff about this heaven and creation was just made so all the “faithful ones” werent scared of death because they thought this “perfect one” was there to protect them – heaven is a bit like death insurance-give us a few ours a week at church or praying for the rest of your life and you shall have “eternal life” in heaven with your creator-why not just spend all the hours you might have spent in the church or praying with your friends or family having a good time?
I will not a disagree with you athiest because I know much of nothing about it. But I can defend
my religion. By reading the bible you would see that it is completly relevant to modern times. I find solutions to my problems in it. I don’t know what a athiest person would do if they can’t ask a friend or family member for help. It seems the closer I get to GOD the easier my life goes. I agree with the athiest who said most athiest would believe in GOD if they had some sort of proof. But I’m here to say that if you put your faith in him, things (unexplainable) will happen to help you get through life with less stress. I mean when I’m right with god I get strange feelings about things and make better decisions. I never ended up at the wrong place at the wrong time. You can’t just sit back and say i need proof. Nothings goin’ to happen, because wouldn’t that be to easy. He wants to see if you trust him. Also people who find things wrong with the bible are sometimes right. But it is impossible for a piece written so long ago to be correct litteraly. You must take it in moral value. People mistake the bible for being literal, but if you have a good preacher he would translate it so that it relevant to your life. That’s why we just don’t just read the bible, we have to go to church. It seems as though everything my pastor says helps me with my problems. I personaly dodn’t think that is a cowincidence. I know people came closer to god in time they became a better person at heart.In conclusion. I think no person can deny how God has changed some peoples lives around.
This blog has Changed to believers trying to change others minds. Yes I believe in God as my own person experences and studies have led me to. My boy Friend who i live with however does not. I want the same respect from atheist that they want. I am currently finishing a degree in earth science. Science is as much of a religion as any other faith such as any other religion. Religion is not just based on “is there a God” or not. There are more religions (science included)than i could count if i were to take the varies offspings of 6. Not to mention the beliefs of The minorities such as Native American that are not accounted for. The Point being that every one has a belief. Go and talk about your ideas and learn from one to another instead of pushing your ideas onto another. People will always believe what they want to believe. Most of the most interesting conversations i have ever had is with people who differ in their belief system from mine. Just because someone has a view that contradicts your own does not make the reasons why you believe what you believe any less. It is not a personal attack. Just respect one another. Religion is something that people have have had wars, murders, and other acts of violence. Why? I have no idea. We need to be more open minded on topics that we are willing to talk about. In other countries it might be hard (laws and regulations may hinder such actions), but as far as i am concerned i don’t care if you believe in the Great noodle monster that lives on mars.
I always shudder when I hear the entrely baseless claim that “Science is a religion” as it demonstrates the lengths to which those who embrace faith as opposed to reason will go to try to give some credibility to baseless and harmful beliefs. The fact is that science is not a religion, especially since science and religion directly contradict one another with virtually every step.
1. Where religion dictates how the individual wishes that the world would be (to the extent of inventing invisible and impossible beings, unknown and unknowable impossible places, and archane rituals which are supposedly revealed through private “knowledge: which is unsurprisingly never verifiable) science is the practice of examining the world as it is. From the very first step the two are on different paths for religion starts with desire and fictional conceptions or wishes, whereas science starts with observation of reality. In scienc one follows the evidence, in religion one creates whatever one wishes. No similarity here.
2. Science involves critical thought and examination. This means that reality determines whether or not a claim about reality is true. Reality leads the way. With religion no comparison to reality is allowed, rather what “confirms” a religious claim about reality is the comparison to the claim itself. Or to put it another way, religion doctrine is axiomatic excluding itself from any examination or comparison to reality to verify, or of course falsify, the claims being made. Rather you are told to merely accept these absurd and false claims on “faith.”
3. Religion is a means of controlling others, of telling them what they must believe, how they must act, and how much of their lives they need to dedicate to those in power in the religion. Contrarily there is no compunction in science forced upon you to believe as scientists do, only the rational conditional: “IF you want to understand the world, then you must examine it critically.” This is no different than conditionals such as “IF you want to put the bike together properly you must assemble it in the proper order.”
You can believe in flying spaghetti monsters or invisble pink elephants or old men with beards sitting on clouds. None of these beliefs however will change reality, nor make those beliefs come true.
Now I do agree that the trait which is so very common to the religious, that of being grossly intolerant of others accepting reality, needs to be eliminated, but given that religion only survives on fear and coercion, on the emotional satisfaction of forcing others to accept the same set of beliefs and the loosey goosey warm feeling of being surrounded by others who share the belief (all necessary since it is impossible to rely upon evidence and reality to support religious belief) this profoundly arrogant and antagonistic attitude will remain a core part of religious belief and practice. Once critical thought and critical examination is allowed, once the religous allow for respect for others, then the religion dies because it cannot stand without the pillars of illusion (1. Reality is not as it is. 2. We (the religious) are infinitely better than all others, so we have to help those poor souls even (or especially) if it means killing them).
As a rational person I have no problem at all with respect for others, including the religious, but it seems that there is a current (represented here by your claim that science is a religion) that pretends that to respect others means to deny reality and reason and pretend that their beliefs are true. I cannot help but notice that this is merely one direction, meaning that certainly we will not find the same respect and simple acceptance of others belief and KNOWLEDGE as necessarily true, that the religious seem to demand from all others (including those of differing religions).
Let’s not insult reality and reason, and those who are able and willing to examine both by pretending that illusion, dishonesty, and mindlessness are identical to reason and evidence.
Ok I am not Christian, nor am I an atheist, I’m not entirely sure of what I believe religion-wise but I do know what I believe about what you’re all talking about. Christians are not stupid, atheists are not stupid. What the problem is here, is a conflict of views, combined with closed-mindedness. We all get our views from what we were taught in childhood, from personal experiences in life, from books, and from stereotypes, and what we deem as cool or not, etc. Now neither Christians or Atheists are wrong, and neither of them are thinking entirely irrationally. Think about when you were a child – do you remember that monster that lived under your bed, or in your closet, and no matter how many times you made your parents check, or how many times they told you that no monsters were under your bed, or in your closet – you still firmly believed that this monster did in fact exist, right? Now, take that view and apply it to yourself, and to Christians. Christians – whether or not you dislike it, try to convert you, or at least get you to attend church in hopes of saving another person. – To them, they are doing the right thing, they are trying to prevent you from going to any torturous place that they firmly believe in. To them, hell is that monster under the bed, and they want to help prevent anyone from being eaten up by it. They were raised in, or taught this religion and decided to devote their lives to it, why bash them? We don’t bash our children, or our friends for going out to fulfill their dreams. Same with Christians to Atheists. , That quote up there about how a Christian didn’t want their child to marry someone of no religion, and would prefer that person to be any religion, as long as they were not Atheists – what is this? Open your eyes, everyone, whether you’re Christian or Atheist, or whatever. This just doesn’t apply to religion. When you think of an African American, what is one of the most common first thoughts that enter most people’s minds? “Oh they live in a ghetto” or “Oh, gang violence” – not all African Americans are involved in gang violence, nor do they all live in ghettos. Shocked? Hmm what else… Asians, yes, what do you think of? Probably “Oh they are so smart and intelligent” or “They are bad drivers”, etc. Sure, they are stereotyped as this, but not all of them are intelligent super-humans, or wreckless drivers. Not all of them make sushi, either. OH and for all the homophobes out there, this one is just for you: What are you so afraid of? Whether you like it or not, humans are all the same, we all have hearts, lungs, brains, arms, legs, etc. What we like and what we do may be different, but you are going to hate someone because they express their love to someone of the same gender? Every human is capable of love, and regardless as to if a man loves a woman, or a woman loves a woman, or if a man loves a man, all love is beautiful. If you’re scared of being hit on, the reason is because you are scared you might actually like it – and that is just socially unacceptable isn’t it? Regardless of what religion we believe in, what skin color we have, how much money we make, how smart we are, who we hang out with, or what we wear – or anything else that may cause conflict – we are all humans. We are all the same species, we just have different thoughts. And because one of us thinks differently than another does not give anyone the right to degrade either of them for their talents/lack of talents – because the funny thing with humans is, for every human talented in doing one thing, there’s always another talented in doing something else. And instead of degrading each other, we should support each other and help one another out. Next time you see someone you hate – just because you know one fact about them, try to get to know them first. Don’t be too hasty to judge, after all, that person you hate because of their skin color, sexuality, hairstyle, or the way they are dressed – could in fact be your next best friend who won’t go spreading rumors about you. – But of course, you’ll never know, right? Because you’ll just harass them like the next guy and move on.
There’s a lot ot be said. There’s a lot we don’t know. There are reasons to love, and reasons to hate. Life is not good or bad. After death is the unknown. In general, our feelings of happiness and of good are things we try to achieve for ourselves. If there is any meaning in the golden rule, we should try to achieve the same for others around us. Interesting site, interesting arguments. Figured out absolutely nothing for sure by reading all these responses. I do not understand what atheists are, I guess. They are more complicated than scientists in my field (biology). Good luck to you all. Haha, luck?
I am Hindu by birth and an atheist by choice. I grew up in a conservative religious family. My family is aware my religious preference or lack of it. Call me hypocrite if you want, but I do participate in all the rituals that my birth religion requires. That’s because my family expects it from me and if it makes them feel good; what’s the problem.
Not all are made equal and some of us need the assurance “That somebody Devine is watching over us“ and religion provides just that. Religion in my opinion is like primitive form of legal system. Most of us are law abiding citizens but for remaining few, religion acts as moral police.
I think being an atheist doesn’t mean ridiculing believers or beliefs as most atheists’ do (that’s hypocritical). If believers don’t know the “Truth“, neither do we. All we have are Theories that we all tend to live by.
Also I think most religions ware conceptualized with the greater good in mind. But are twisted beyond reorganization by few, who use it to serve their own hideous purpose. I am not against religion I am against blind faith. The system where one is ready to kill or dye for his beliefs.
Human life is the most precious thing of all and not worth loosing for anything
i believe that a lot of Christians, not ALL believe those myths. The main thing that bothers me is their intolerance and “pity” for us. A common one i see is that if someone doesnt believe in God then they must worship the devil. A completely ridiculous and unintelligent thing to say. Atheism is not a religion just a lack of one. Christians and everybody should be REVERENT.
And my Atheism is not by birth however my father is an atheist. I tried to believe in God for a long time. I went to a camp, read part of the bible, even admitted i loved jesus. BUT. i now believe all that was because i just wanted belief badly, blind faith in something appealed greatly to me. I believe that people believe in god because they are afraid. Afraid of the unknown. They want to KNOW what is going to happen to them when life is over.
Finding people who are less spiritual than a rock is not difficult and proves nothing but such hatred on both sides is revealing. Unless one has witnessed something unexplainable as I have and possess an open mind hungry for knowledge of all things including known science and theoretical science, you are not capable of assessing diverging points of view. I don’t care if you worship god, God, nothing, Nothing, money, yourself, or cows.
* For one human being to love another: that is perhaps the most difficult of all our tasks, the ultimate, the last test and proof, the work for which all other work is but preparation. ~ Rainer Maria Rilke
* All that is not eternal is eternally out of date. ~ C. S. Lewis
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* “If God did not exist, He would have to be invented.” But all nature cries aloud that he does exist: that there is a supreme intelligence, an immense power, an admirable order, and everything teaches us our own dependence on it.
o Voltaire quoting himself in his Letter to Prince Frederick William of Prussia (1770-11-28), translated by S.G. Tallentyre, Voltaire in His Letters, 1919.