The original 16 Common Myths About Atheists post currently has a huge amount of comments, which may scare new readers off. Besides, most of them have diverged from the original purpose of the article (and I’m guilty of that as well, in my replies) – the discussion quickly left the myths about atheists, and became about whether God exists or not.
So, we can continue the discussion here. 
However, just one request: let’s try to go back to the original subject: the myths about atheists. Either whether they exist or not (though I have already posted about that here), and whether some of them are correct – that is, they aren’t really myths, because atheists are indeed like that (I don’t think we are, though there may be some sporadic exceptions).
So, without further ado… feel free to comment. 
No related posts.
Tags: atheism, christianity
Subscribe to this blog
In Noah’s time when he was building the Ark, they laughed and mocked him. And i dont blame them ^_^!! I would of thought hes loony too. Imagine how sure they where of themselves that Noah was a crazieee fellow.
Imagine when he went inside the ark with the animals, and sat for a couple of days in the sun?
But when that rain started to fall for the first time… Imagine how much regret they had when everything they where so sure of fell apart.
Yes hell is bad, but God has such a wonderful plan for you, He will make you His son, and invite you into His house. It all depends if you repent, turn away from your sins, and Follow Him who says “I AM”. If you reject his payment for your fine, you have to pay for it yourself. If i dont share the truth of Gods judgment day, that means i dont care about you guys. I want the best for you, He wants the best for you. I know you can do good things and be a good person on your own. But God’s moral standard is not nearly as low as ours.
Some people have been hurt from neglect by God, but he PROMISES if you draw near to Him (seek Him diligently), He will draw near to you.
Peace.
flyingpika: sorry, I don’t think he exists. But, to get back on topic, do you believe any of those things about atheists?
flyingpika
i hope youre fucking kidding dude
bro are you saying that unless i take him into my life i
the nicest fuken guy on the dam planet will go to hell. fuck you and preach somwhere else
I hate your patronising angle also. You talk as if you feel sorry for us athiests when the reverse is true.
We simply define our own beliefs and don’t need to give “GOD” the credit for our positive attributes or
successes. And those myths sound to me like christian propa-motherfucking-ganda.
Pedro,
Thanks for that article, i found it very interested, having myself beleived some of those myths. I am a Christian, but i am very open minded. Just as i can recognise that some christians are very close minded and are very ignorant, you should also see that many athiests may not be as open minded as you.
I admire that you have read the bible, i think it’s important that you know both sides of the story, i myself have read alot of muslim, general spirituality, astrology, and anything else i can get my hands on (hence why i’m reading your site) i think this is the a problem with alot of christians, not looking around at least having some knowledge of what other people belive.
I found number 15 very interesting, as it made me ask myself what would make me re-consider my beleifs? short of dieing and it not being what i expected (in which case i’d be dead) i’m not sure how i could answer that. I have faith that what i beleive is real, but being a bit of a thinker myself, i would be lying if i said i had never considered otherwise.
generalization =
if there was a stupid athiest standing next to me ( also an athiest )
and that idiot was ranting about how the world was
i would never consider myself the same as him.
and noboady else should assume that i am either.
Devo i respect your opinion you have proven yourself very openminded
I say that so perhaps you will not take offence to a saying my father has told me from birth
a little bit religious, a little bit stupid
very religious, very stupid ( only works on the basis of probability just as our logic and reason )
the point of this is a “myth” that i happen to believe about religion ( one that i happen to believe )
and although i am almost certain it applies to many of them
i am more certain that it does not apply to many of them
so back to the start
generalization = a closed mind
This was a terrible writing. You obviously were trying to prove the Christian’s generalized belief on atheists were untrue, but instead of doing that you generalized Christians (and all other religions, by effect). Which makes you as ignorant as you claim them to be. I’m sure you’ll get lots of kudos for it, but that doesn’t destroy any of the irony.
no by generalizing christians i was hoping to point out the flaw of doing it
which you have obviously picked up on hence the flame
and hey get me wrong and flame away
its perhaps more amusing and better for the noggin as saying how great it is that you agree with me
and yes my english is terrible i have no illusions to that fact
i have written perhaps 2 essays in my life and this is the first site i have posted on
i could pehaps write correctly considering picking up on it while spending over half of my short life of 18 years reading books
if i could be bothered. you could understand me couldnt you? so whats the problem
do you think your grammar is going to mean dick sitting on a island by yourself.
i come in peace
The problem with this is that you become what you are raised.
But that doesn’t mean one should be arrogant about it. I have the misfortune to sometimes catch FOX news (and the stupidity to actually watch it when I do) so all I can tell to you poor souls with an IQ over 90 in America is to come over here in EU we have some room for all the three dozens of you.
By-the-by, I don’t know if god exists and i don’t really care, does that make me an atheist?
This is the most biased peice of shit ive ever seen. You guys wont admit it, but mostly the real reason why you WONT believe in god is because you got sick of rules about not sinning so you use this “god doesnt exist until i see him” bullshit as an excuse to be able to do what you want without regret. And presonally, even though there is no ABSOLUTE proof since the many miracles that happen revently arent enoguh to convince you assholes; I would rather believe in god to die and find out there isnt, than not believe and die to find out there is and that because of my carelessness im probably gonna go to hell. And from this crock pot list, I see that athiests are more sterotypical than almost any other types of people.
Yeah you hit the nail on the head diddn’t you.
Oh and the “Miracles” you speak of, im intrigued for I have not seen or heard about a single one.
So christianity is about belief ( How convientient ) and you think we are to scared to believe in something bigger than ourselves right?
Oh no not the bipolar future of heaven and hell, its infintiy is to much to bear.
And hey just because I dont believe in a large God in our image ( Wow imagine that in our image ) dosent mean that the general rules
of christianity arn’t sound and the guy who made them up was a thinker and manipulater of his time.
Some would say a mean for his ideal end.
INFORMATION
Was Raised by books
I have a iq of 145
And I live in New Zealand
gtapro91: thank you for confirming several myths at once (3, 4 and 5, at least).
And you reminded me of another one, which isn’t on the list: that atheists refuse God simply because they don’t want rules and want to “sin” as much as they want. Which, of course, makes no sense at all, since the the definition of “sin” implies the existence of some higher power, and we don’t believe in one. It’s related to myth 5, but I think it qualifies as a separate myth. Maybe I should update the list…
Indeed. Why is it that most fundamentalists on the Internet (note: I don’t mean all Christians are like this) are rude and can’t spell?
Okay, I confess, I didn’t read all the previous posts so this may have been answered already, if so, I apologize in advance. Can somebody explain this to me? What would be the most important thing to have for a species thrive and continue? Sexual organs, right? So, if a bolt of lightning struck a pool of primordial goo and it came to life, how does the species survive past the first being with no way to replicate itself? Also, in school I was taught that one of the laws of science was that you could neither create nor destroy matter. If that’s so, where did all the matter that’s here come from to begin with? Thanks!
Unicellular organisms were the first organisms on earth, they don’t need sex organs because they don’t have sex, they reproduce by dividing. This reproduces an entire new organism (It’s making a copy of itself).
The big-bang covers most of the matter question and I know how most christians love that theory ;P
http://mediatheek.thinkquest.nl/~ll125/en/bigbang.htm
I agree with snorzle on all except one thing.
When and on which planet the first microbes came about.
If you work with probability.
Then its far more probable that life exists right throughout the universe and life on earth was seeded by a meteor.
I take this stand due to the fact that life coming about on the spot is so improbable the the life in the universe
far outweighs it in the chance of it happening. (Which also origionated from the life on the spot thing)
I know its a well know theory.
But most of us only find out that such theories exit after we think of them ourselves.
Don’t get me wrong guys, I’m just trying to understand the thought process that goes into not believing in God. I have questioned his existance at times in the past until I took chemistry, biology, and anatomy and physiology in college. After some thought I began to realize just how improbable that all this stuff just happened on it’s own …all by accident or coincidence.
So, here goes… How did the “very first” unicellular organism gain the ability to divide itself i.e reproduce? It would’ve had to be created with the ability to do that right? (I think it’s called asexual reproduction… like worms) Was it’s DNA also fully formed at it’s creation so that it’s twin would be just exactly like itself?
I know I must sound pretty stupid, but where did the empty universe come from? Even an empty universe got it’s beginnings somehow, right? Here’s another dumb question, why isn’t the moon 10 feet thick in space dust instead of just a couple of inches if the Earth and moon are billions(?) of years old? Thanks again. -Tracy
Well firstly for biology.
The only reason in my opinion why life is here is because it can.
Yoda almost said “can or cannot there is no why”.
Now because it can is not good enough at all so here goes.
The big bang theory may only be partially right but no theory will ever be 100%.
Personally I believe that there are infintie such explosions happening every “second”.
And life would also have to have been created billions of times over through the infinte spectrum of time
before a creature ( I mean mirobe type organism ) was created that sucessfull replicated itself which supports my
life was deffinately not concieved on earth theory due to lack of time. ( at least not the earth we know of )
also dna was deffinately not in the first microbe the first microbe is like the first computer. Ever seen one ?
and only its decendants survived. Now why all microbes on earth all have dna
( apart from the red microbes that rained down on india in 2001 which are confirmed to replicate without dna.
Findings of which to be officially posted start of next year. )
its simple you did biology so all I should have to say is Founder effect.
To the moon dust.
When the big bang happened planets did not explode out of the furnace of pure energy.
Individual atoms instead flew out in all directions and gravity eventually ( over unfathomable ammounts of time )
brought the atoms together ( hence the globe structure and the poles, its also the reason why planets rotate )
this may explain why there is only so much dust as when more dust is “collected” its compressed by millions of years of gravity and becomes part of the planet.
And dont think billions of years when you think about such problems.
Try a googleplex to the power of a googleplex.
Which by the way dosent mean dick in the spectrum of infinity. ( if time exists at all )
Now I will not attmept to convert you or to disprove god as it is useless to try and it dosent really matter,
you seem to be a healthy open minded person so religion is perfecty fine.
But I ask you this are my “far out” Theorys less probable,
Than a human ( remember we were made in his image )
who is all knowing ( do you know one of those humans? )
and can create the entirety of infinty at his whim while at the same time
never revealing himself to us. ( also u ever met a human who dosent gloat )
Want to know anymore im happy to elabourate.
I would just like to thank you for that article. Being an Atheist in a prodominently Christian (Baptist) area, I find it difficult to even share my beliefs with anyone. It’s sad, because all these Christians like me, but if they found out I am an Atheist, they would shun me just because of all of those myths listed above. Thank you for getting out our message, whether they actually believe anything you said or not, at least they’ll read it. Thanks.
My question is how anyone can believe in Christianity or any other religion? I do not know if I am an atheist or not. Maybe you can tell me!
I may believe in something…but I do not know what. I question how anything was started and as soon as you give me an answer I ask “what was before that?”.
I have been questioning religion since I was five years old when my mother told me that there is no Santa Clause. The first thing I asked was “Well then what about God?” Throughout elementary school I would cry and night and worry about His existence. How much of a let down would it be if I died believing in God and there was nothing?. Since then, the only thing that has helped to comfort me is to believe in nothing and therefore I expect nothing and cannot be let down in death.
As I have grown older I have had more questions that have plagued my mind. What happens to all the people who believe in a different God that another group?? Are they all going to hell? How do you know which one is the right one?
Then I begin to think of the universe a little more and realize that the furthest humans have ever gone, maybe seen, even how far we will ever go may be only 1 billionth of the size of the entire universe. If we can only go this far how can we begin to say that you can know who God is and be convinced your right.
As for the improbability of having humans created by a couple micro organisms…it is very improbably and that is exactly the point. There may be only a handful of planets in the universe that have the right conditions for life to thrive and probably only a 1 in infinity chance of them growing into us. It is even less than very rare and personally I just get the feeling that this makes US special for being able to survive…not some dude with rule over earth that created us cause he was bored of chillin by himself.
Furthermore, I see the ability for us to invent God much more plausible than Him inventing us. Just like Santa Clause if no one ever told me that he wasn’t real and my mom secretly put gifts under the Christmas tree every year I might still believe in him too. As for God it sure seems like it is the same thing, a story someone made up and then the guy died before he could tell everyone that he was just fucking with them. Plus if I were this age 100 years ago I would be much more likely to believe because of my lack of knowledge about the world. Looking at the sky thinking that heaven was on top of the clouds or so much more that we now know that could have been explained my God back then.
Maybe if I were raised to believe in nothing I would want to believe in something but being raised a Catholic as much as I would like to believe in the God I cannot bring myself to have this faith. It is almost the opposite in that I have the same feeling believers call Faith, which only means I believe that I am right! And I have faith that all religion believers are wrong.
What am I called? I do not believe in God, but know there so much that we don’t know that I cannot prove or disprove anything. Although I think I can disprove the God most other people believe in, I cannot disprove a universal God because we do not know enough about the universe. Although I question this type of higher power I do not think that He would give two shits if I killed someone, I would never do such a thing because I do believe in morals and to act the way that church teaches us to act without forcing all the God bull on us.
That is all I can say for now. Please Comment on this because I believe that questioning others beliefs and trying to understanding them is the only way to truly believe your own.
Jess
I do not know anything about which category would be classified, Athiest or whatever. These are just my own opinions.
Some people believe that mankind was created by a god, others understand that gods are an invention of mankind. I strongly suspect that the “others” have more brains and use them.
Indeed. Why is it that most fundamentalists on the Internet (note: I don’t mean all Christians are like this) are rude and can’t spell? Because those that are capable of forming sentences in a tactful manner have more sense than to troll Atheist blogs?
Dunno about you lot, but I find the most annoying myth about atheists is the one that says that morality is divinely inspired and thus we atheists have no morality. Social conditioning and culture is a non-issue, apparently.
incredible. absolutely incredible. at the age of 12, when asked about what my beliefs were, and given the options, i researched them all and found that only the term “atheist” fully described what i truly believed in. as a lifetime student of the physical sciences, i find myself constantly grappling with constant continuities with infinite conceptual spans – which are ofcourse impossible to completely comprehend with our limited number of neurons. hence these limitless possibilities are reduced to what is simply a convenient singularity – god. these myths about atheists are truly a necessity for society as a whole, and indeed it is a way for people to realise that the way forward is through fully realising the humans’ potential and not cutting it short by restricting our communal growth to simply relate every currently unanswered question mark with a faceless creator.
in conclusion, from what i’ve read on these forums, everything that can be said has been said already. in relation to rebuttals put forth by believers, i implore you to scratch below the surface of what you believe to be. ask questions, and when they’re not answered directly, look elsewhere, open your mind fully to possibilities that you may never fully understand – because that is simply what is human. the constant struggle to understand and draw meaning from life. don’t merely say it’s “god” and close the book. keep reading…
Tracy: your reason for believing in God seems to be “I don’t know how this came to be; surely it must be God’s work.” That’s known as the “God of the Gaps” (God is the explanation for whatever mankind doesn’t know or understand – yet), which I’ve written about in the past, and will write about again very soon – I have a new approach I want to present here. Check back for a new post, in a bunch of hours.
Great discussion.
I have no beliefs – I find them a terrible anathema. One does not have to believe in that which is before his eyes – only in that which cannot be seen. So, one comes to the conclusion that one has to aggressively and positively eschew belief in order to live with eyes wide open. (This seems to be a relatively radical position, since I find that most people openly accuse me of lying or being disingenuous when I tell them that I have no beliefs.)
I add these thoughts because the implications of having no beliefs means that it I am neither a theist nor a an atheist – i.e., I don’t believe that there is no God, and I don’t belief in the anthropomorphic projection that is commonly psychologically beheld by believers.
Life is a beautiful mystery… when left un-dulled by easy superstition.
Athiesm / agnosticsm is a copout
what boggls me, is why even a christian would go to church?
why would god want you to waste any time inside, when its a beautiful day out? i mean, if its a t-storm, then your probobly not gonna go anyways, in the winter, have you ever looked out over a snow covered field ? its glorious. you can go skiing.
in the summer, its nice and sunny, and you can go outside and play a pickup game of something. i think thatn most people understand this, but do not accept it. eventually they forget it when they get older, and thats why churches are full of old people and minors that are draged there to “impress upon them christianity”
ps, i just woke up, so ive probobly had bad grammer and such. sorry
ummad @ 8:04 -
You may or may not have been directing that comment to me, but I’d like to clarify that I am not an agnostic. (I agree that agnosticism is essentially meaningless and an intellectual copout.)
I am, rather, a very passionate seeker who is aware of his mortality. And without saying too much about it (Truth does not lend itself well to linear, thought-based verbosity – as ALL religions demonstrate all too well,) let’s just say I’ve found a few, ahem, secrets lying about and am enjoying the sacred during the only time that such is possible… while I’m still alive.
I am an atheist. When I was a kid I went to church and was enthralled by the stories of Jesus but as I got older and began to question the teachings of the bible and realised that it was a fictionalised account of events which were designed to keep the uneducated masses in line. I now believe that to the case with all other religions. I have no predjudices..I think all religions are bad..although I know that all people who practice their religion are not. It seems to me that it is not the religion that people practice that is the problem..it is their intolerance of other religions which causes problems. However, lets not think that if we were all atheist then the problems of the world would be solved. This is not the case, sadly, human beings will inevitably find some other reason to hate their neighbour, nationalism; borders; race; lifestyle; football team, ad finitum. The horrors perpetrated in the name of religion going on in the world at this time would continue I’m afraid..not on religious grounds, but certainly by some other.
Well this is just a small point, but if you want someone to respect you, shouldn’t you respect them? Keep in mind I’m certainly not persecuting someone, but that whole article was similar to saying “Stop calling me an idiot you morons!” which seemed rather hypocritical to me at least.
If it was just you venting frustration and this wass more of a personal grievence, then it hardly seems worthy of an intellectual debate when the initial arguement contains such blatant mudslinging.
Q: you have a point. I started it nicely, but when writing it (except for some later editing, it was all written in one sitting) I began to get really annoyed at some things that Christians do or say. I think that changing it now would perhaps be hypocritical, but, if you want to, you’ll find that the newer articles are less “incensed”.
Note to self: don’t get too angry at what I’m writing.
Atheism or Christianity? That is the question with which I struggle constantly. I’m always reading articles and watching programs regarding the theories of darwinism, the big bang theory, infinite alternate universes etc., and it all makes sense to me. On the other hand, after going through college courses in chemistry and biology, and seeing the properties of atoms and subparticles, and how they fall into such an organized periodic table, the complexity of the eukaryotic cell and the unique computer-like coded DNA found in each one of us, it is hard to attribute this universe solely on chance alone.
I’m familiar with all the major religious beliefs and histories, and have decided that Christianity makes the most convincing argument. Not to say I believe in it, but I ponder what do I have to gain or lose by choosing Christianity? I really don’t have to change a whole lot. Just give up a few vices and devote a little time each day to God, and I end up gaining a life in eternal paradise if it turns out to be true. For atheism, I get to do whatever I want during my life on Earth, within the limits of the local government’s laws, but if I’m wrong I get to spend an eternity suffering. Either way I can still accomplish the goals I may have during my life here. So why not choose Christianity? Guess it comes down to my lack of faith; atheists have faith there is no God, Christians have faith there is.
i was born and raised a jew, latly i began to question the idea of god, and the more and more i read into atheism & jeuadism, i find athism the more and more correct, i have to say that i agree with alot of what is said here, and that i think religion will be the downfall of humanity, look at all the anger and pain that it brings.
I am an athiest also. Around these parts, (you can tell where I live by my name) you have to be careful who you discuss these matters with. It can affect job, family, etc. However, was having a talk once with a Christian friend who knew about my athiesm. We were having a talk about morals and values. His contention was that I had learned my values from the Bible, (having been raised in a nominally christian family)
I tried to explain to him that basic human values are inherint in our psychological makeup. He was not convinced, so this is what I did. I had him lay his hand on the table and I smacked it hard with a TV remote. Then I asked him if that hurt? “Well of course it hurt”, he said “but what did that prove?”. I then told him that you do not need a book to tell you that hurting someone is bad. I know that something that hurts me will hurt someone else if I do it to them. I think this is one of the fallacies of organized religion, that somehow we are at heart so callus and ignorant that somebody had to tell us how to treat others. I told him my values and morality are based on my humanity, not on a religous belief. Comments please? By the way, he didn’t get it.
Here’s a bunch of odd things Christians that I know of have done or said:
1. When asked what she thought about other religions that also follow God (Catholic), she said, “They will probably go to hell because they’re Catholic, not Christian.”
2. Every response to ambiguous questions about life is answered by the Bible. Why can’t you steal? Because the Bible said so. Why can’t you be gay? Because the Bible said so. Etc.
3. In a philosophy class where there was a discussion as to whether all people are innately selfish, one student based her whole argument on the Bible. “People are not selfish because the Bible states that you should love others blah blah blah.” A counter-arguer said, “Well, say you give a kid a lollipop because you are unselfish and want the kid to be happy. Aren’t you acting selfish because you want to be acknowledged as being unselfish. Would you give the kid a lollipop again if he took out a gun, mugged you, and shot you in the knees?” Her response was something stupid and used the Bible as proof. Seriously, without the Bible, Christians really have no defense.
4. In my former college, UC Berkeley, there are occasionally some Christian protestors holding up huge banners (HUGE, LIKE 8 X 5 FEET) that say, “YOU WILL GO TO HELL FOR NOT BEING CHRISTIAN.”
5. This Christian girl said her sisters are going to hell for not being as Christian as she is.
6. If you ask a Christian about 9/11, they’ll say something stupid like “God is angry for the sin that the world has done and is punishing everybody.”
7. If good person dies in a very awful way, a Christian will say, “Now he is at peace and with God.” Riiiiiight, whatever helps you sleep night.
8. Some Christians won’t get involved in a relationship with a non-Christian.
9. John Kerry said he’s Christian just to get more votes. I don’t think a non-Christian can ever become President and if he or she does, they will never admit it because they will lose the election, guaranteed.
10. Christians are against embryonic stem cell research because it’s killing life. Ok now, if you accidently put a 12 cell human blastula in a petri dish full of a billion yeast cells and place that on a benson burner, is killing that “human being” really so much different than killing the bunch of other cells are only different because of a few less chromosomes?
11. All Christians are against abortion (correct me if i’m wrong). Which is better, killing a 48 week old fetus or letting it grow into an infant, having it thrown into a dumpster because the child bearer didn’t want it, someone finding it and putting it into an orphanage, letting it grow up without parents and eventually become miserable and as pathetic as his/her parents probably were? Not to mention he/she will probably accidently have a child and be unable to support him/her so the cycle continues on and on until one day, he/she decides to bring an uzi into a bank and kill a dozen people, he/she gets the death penalthy, and the cycle finally stops after 3-4 generations.
12. Christians prohibit premarital sex and you will go to hell if you do so. I’m not making an excuse or anything but humans are technically animals and I find it wierd that we’re the only ones that make ourselves feel bad when we want to do only what’s natural. Guys usually start getting erections when they hit puberty which is usually 10 years or so before they get married. Why would God torture us in such a horrible way!?
13. I asked a Christian what heaven would be like and he said, “Oh, it will be really fun!” Hahaha, I just found that really funny for some reason. Does that mean there will be orgy’s and plenty of booze? If everything in heaven is regulated by the laws of Christianity, then I would think it would be pretty damn boring. I think I’d rather go to hell, it might make the afterlife more interesting.
14. The Da Vinci Code is banned in some areas that are strongly Christian. This is absolutely in line with the Christian belief, that there is one person that rules us and doing anything else is wrong. How is this so much different than a tyrant? Would a stem cell laboratory ban a scientist who comes in with the Bible in his backpack?
14. Lastly, even if athiests can’t really PROVE without using a little faith that the Big Bang existed, that there was a primordial soup, and all that junk, there is enough evidence that we have discovered that disproves the existence of God by disputing the Bible. I don’t see any dinosaurs in the Bible? How is it that we can date the Earth to 4.5 billions years but the Bible says that the universe was created 10000 years ago or some really low number? THere are just too many things that disprove the “facts” in the Bible. And why would God try to deceive the people by planting these fossils and stuff to convince us to be non believers.
I’m not so sure that a person is born with the inate ability to show empathy. I personally believe that we are born selfish and think that the world revolves around us… and it does for the first few years or, in my case, until my little brother came along and took away my throne. A little while back I watched a documentary about “wild children”, children that were raised by dogs or other animals. If they weren’t “rescued” by the age of (I think) 6 or 7 years old they never “learned” to have empathy for other people as well as never having learned to speak. Okay, I’m ready, let me have it.
Pedro,
You claim to be happy and content. Good for you. Why make the list, then? I mean, why do you care what believers think about you?
Xavier: And why do you Christians care about what we don’t believe? Oh yes, cause you’re trying to save us.
Personally, I think the list is meant more for athiests than for Christians. It’s one of those lists that are made because they are funny and true, just like if there’s a list that talks about LA people and says, “You won’t drive if the walk is more than 5 minutes.”
Edit: “you WILL drive”
Tracy,
I’m guessing you were responding to my post, so let me clarify what the discussion was about. My friends contention was that without the teachings of the Bible, we, as human beings, would have no moral compass to guide our lives. I was making a point to him that human experience, without a “textbook on human behavior”, could indeed lead to the same morality and values he espouses. I did not mean that we do this each ourselves alone in every life. Certainly guidance from others is part of the human continuum. But we get this guidance from other human beings, not from a metaphysical entity out in the ether.
something i’ve noticed:
atheists will usually start arguing for thier beliefs but when a few “religious nuts” step up to respond to the flames, the atheist will pull the “you’re pushing your beliefs on me!!! Momma No!!!” response.
And on the last page someone said “Religion is the single greatest root of all evil.”.
I agree radical jew-killing muslims are evil…
but other than that this is the dumbest comment with the least support i have ever heard
Oops! I understand what you meant now, sorry about that. Here’s another question that will show off my ignorance even more… Does atheism allow for even the remotest possiblity that there “may” exist a being greater than us however remote that possibility may be? I guess what I’m saying is that, isn’t it being just a tiny bit close minded to rule out the very possibility that there just might be a God? To me, it takes a massive amount of faith to believe everything that scientists theorize. They all seem to start from the stand point of “Well, there is no God so here’s what probably happened…” and they usually end with something like “it’s just a theory, we will never really know…” .. I *still* don’t know how the universe got it’s start, even after reading over the “Big Bang” website last night. I mean, you can’t create something from nothing, right? Thanks again.
Never said I was a Christian. But to answer your question anyway, Christians care because that’s what they do. I was just curious as to why a self-assured atheist would need to post a list about something every atheist already knows.
What is interesting is that you say that you do not hate christians or christianity. Apperently you hate both. It seems that you have the taste of christian blood on your tounge and that if your best friend turned christian (oh no!) then you would totally think they was an idiot and you would loose interest in being friends with them. The mere fact that you were so emotionally distraught about christianity and how much that religion has oppressed your beliefs shows that you hate it. If you met me you wouldn’t know that I AM christian. You would not know it because I can think for myself and I am not held back by these ideals you so thoughtfully made us aware of! I do not care for this, every other shoutwire post that makes it big turns out to have some god bashing shit that is getting tiring. I do not let people know my faith because if I did, you would not leave me alone and you would call me stupid and reject me as a lesser of society. Do not tell me that there is no god because you cannot know for sure. If you are able to prove it then I would not be in denial! I do not deny that there is a chance that God does not exist but I am not about to believe. How can you deal with someone like me? A christian that is nothing like you just mentioned? I have never though YOU PEOPLE idiots. I think you are entitled to your own opinions and if I was to find out that you had different beliefs, then I would not bother you. I am not your typical christian and normally I will not even respond to this. But it just aggreviates me that you hate me because I am Christian. It aggreviates me that you, just like 140,000 other people felt it necessary to voice your opinion. And, though I do not mind that fact annoying, its that there was such a huge response to it. What is this? You don’t hate us right? What about me, I sit right between you two, the atheist and the conservative christians. Shouldn’t you people who boast about having the right to think for themselves rethink what you just said? I have a right think for myself and I believe deeply that God does exist. Hate me, see if I care. I will not press my religion on you. What I find that Bush is doing is just down right white trash, ghetto, he said she said bullshit. He does not represent christianity, he never will. He is just like all those Muslims who claim jihad on anything that farts. And believei t or not, probably not.. I accept Muslims too! I may not agree with what they believe and I may not agree with what you believe, but I find good in both of you. I accept everyone for who they are, not what they think!! If you think christianity is stupid, well good! We have more important issues than how you think that I think that atheists are bad.
I know this post is rather random in nature, and I apoligize for it!
I do realize what you mean, why you think this way. Honestly, I hate the majority of christians myself. They are rich white guys and rich white women who own Wal-Mart and claim to be christian. They are people whom are currupted because of money and who will go to lengths to get it. Everything they do is in the name of christianity and really, its not. My father once had a church (yes he is a preacher) where, once he got there, he tried so hard to bring people in. In my opinion he is one of the best preachers just for that because he stood his ground against these christians who apprently own this church. They literally told him that if he didn’t start bringing poor people and people they didn’t like into this church (and trust me, everyone they didn’t like didn’t stay), he could go f himself. Needless to say, that church is in a family who is one of the worst I have ever met. The church picked on me because I was different, they had the gaull to tell me that I was the son of satan and yelled at dad because I was up past 11 on a saturday night. So you tell me who has it worse! I put up with all of that and I know where you are coming from. I hate those types of christians just as much as you do. I think they are idiots thinking they can call God’s name for anything they do. They treated us like shit just because dad wanted to expand the church, isn’t that what christianity is about?
So tell me now, are you attacking me as a person who has strong beliefs in something you do not agree with? Or are you attacking those persons who are mentioned above? I realize this post is going to get a lot of bashing, but I am ready. I believe there is a god, I am a man of science (can that be?). I have not told you that you are stupid for the way you think, I am just aggreviated that there have been so many posts about this. You want to know what I compare this one to? Songs on the ready played 5 times a day (I hate RHCP now), Linux vs. Windows (both are great operating systems depending on what your needs are), and Bush bashing. We hear this stuff constantly and I do not participate in any of them. I have my opinions, but because not one person who replys to this post will even take into consideration that perhaps christianity is possibly true (I am not saying that you are wrong), I do not readily share them.
Thanks for taking the time to read this. I hope you realize that not all christians and United States citizens are bad. Not all US cit. love Bush and what he has done in the name of Christianity and I hope you will be more leniant on the next christian you meet. I do not hate you for what you believe in and I will never call you an idiot. My idea is this: you may be right.
Tracy,
Again I must surmise that you are responding to me as you don’t address your comment to me. Please do so as I enjoy this repartee and would like to be sure I am engaging in a discussion. As to your questions. I cannot speak for all athiests. There is no manual that tells us what to think or believe. I am not so presumptuous as to think I know all the answers. What I do believe is this; no living person has any more proof of the existence of a supreme being than I have. And “isn’t it being just a tiny bit close minded” to rule out the possibility that there might not be a god? Also, scientists do not expect you to take it on faith that they are right. A good scientist expects to have his theories and ideas questioned and challenged to prove, with evidence and verifiable results, that he is correct. Also, I have never EVER heard or read a scientific statement or theory start with “Well, there is no God so …” That is just nonsense. Sounds like a Christian talking point to me. Lastly, nobody knows for sure how the universe began, thats what theories are all about. Sorry my response takes so long, I type kinda slow.
“I believe there is a god, I am a man of science (can that be?).” I think Einstein was Christian?
To summarize this long discussion, it seems like the consesus is that both Atheism and Christianity require some faith just because there’s no way of knowing how everything started. Christianity has its Bible and scientists believe somehow that the world was created by the equation Nothing = Matter + Antimatter (My science is rusty so this may be wrong). I forgot if they proved this or not but I believe they have since they have witnessed such things occurring in practice. To say that the world was created this way though is still kinda far fetched, and this is coming from a sciency person.
There is one key difference though. Scientists have developed all their theories based on some kind of evidence though it may not be very complete. There is evidence that the Big Bang could have occurred (background radiation) and all those primordial soup theories are based on laboratory experiments. It’s not like they all of a sudden said, “Hey, I think we came out of Campbell’s Chunk Soup!” On the contrary, Christians have developed their beliefs from a freakin book that popped out of nowhere.
Have Christians ever thought that their religion might eventually be phased out like all the previous religions? What makes their religion so special?
and also what makes you think that it had to come from somewhere.
time isint real the universe has no start and no end because time is an illusion.
I mean you ask where it came from due to the fact that something cant come from nothing.
which proves god creation ability wrong.
I do not provide answers, EVER.
Its all speculation.
I just wanted to share my opinion from my personal beliefs of some of your myths.
5. Atheists actually know, deep inside, that there’s a God, as that’s perfectly obvious; they are simply too proud and arrogant to admit the existence of something greater than themselves. — I don’t see how somebody could simply believe there is a God. To want to believe in Him or not is a concious decision of lifestyle. To truely seek God is a path of wisdom and dedication, if you don’t you live a life seeking other things which will never satisfy — fame, money, relationships, etc. If you don’t live a life for God you will use your ~70 years seeking fun and exhileration. (99.9% of the world would probably find nothing wrong with that, it’s just a personal belief) aka living life to the fullest. (therefore, not nilhistlic) Furthermore, while people aren’t born with the knowledge that there is a god, I believe people are created inertly good. Whether or not people are caring or not and their level of morality depend on their upbringing. But in that upbringing, people respond to positive reinforcement with joy and punishment and negative reinforcement with [at least] a lack of joy. All feel joy the same way, and all like being happy, no matter their religious background. (Atheists neither cold nor inmmoral) It’s simply that this world is full of sin (not ‘the devils world –its still Gods) that sometimes when personal interests conflict with those of others, you may not have much reason to give up your own wishes, especially if there is no friendship at steak.
15. Atheists are stubborn and closed-minded. — If you have a belief in something, it is likely you are going to be stubborn and closed minded… especially if that thing defines most of what you are (speaking about Christians actually). But from your tone in general, you seem to contradict 1, 10, and 11 as you feel bad for most people that believe in a God [of any sort] and wish them to see what you would call ‘the truth.’ But again, religion is a concious decision, and just as you have chosen to believe there is no God, many choose to do the oposite and as [I'm assuming] an American you should respect their right to believe whatever they wish. We hold our belief there is a God as much as youd say there isn’t one, and I believe you have better things to do than fight us to the death for it.
besides, if you went around saying theres no God, won’t people be as pissed at you as they are at jahovas witnesses?
13. Atheists live their lives in constant fear of death. — You don’t fear death because you don’t think about it (not that you should) but because you believe that this is your only life and you have nothing to die for, you’d likely choose to do something bad to save your own tail. Christians cherish life as much, if not more, than non-christians. We aren’t supposed to believe that this life is just a test before the real thing. It’s simply that this life isn’t perfect, and the world is full of sin (we can agree on that much can’t we?) and no longer decide to put our hopes here. We’ve come to the understanding that wrongdoing has been around and will always be here as long as the Earth exists but believe that if we set our hearts to follow under a perfect diety, a better world awaits us. (that was part of
Also its easy to think that Atheists want to stop faiths since you believe it to be a waste of time. I can see that to you, Christianity (and other religions) are a diversion against the goals humans should have, and deviate our time from truly useful things. It is hard to see why you would put so much effort into being atheists, rather than agnostic, if you did not have any religious experiences. Also, once people band together to create a perfect world and more agnostics and staggering faithees run with that idea, it is likely that religions will be seen as opposing this dream as we don’t put our hopes in this world.
12. Atheists are incapable of feeling awe at simple things, like a beautiful sunset, as they see everything in terms of cold science, instead of miracles. — not all atheists are scientists, and just like death, nobody walks around constantly thinking about these things. Also, science was originally created to study and understand the many creations of God so really, we shouldnt be enemies– I know I’d still treat you like any other friend of mine.
And if you want a place where Atheists can gather, set up a chatroom or fourm. I believe as of right now, you guys are too much of a rare breed to set up ‘churches’ across the country. But I don’t see how it would be any different than any other social gathering… you could go around and convert people I guess….
I think it’s good to point out here what atheist actually means, rather than the use of the word as a substitute for the word heretic.
Athesism by definition is purely the rejection of established organised theological belief, what then an athesit actually believes is arbitrary. There are, of course, atheist groups like humanists, but any group that peddles a specific belief is by definition a religion.
I’d point out that athesists are often quite agnostic, but compared to agnostics have some certainity of their rejection of religion, and would identify themselves as atheist. Agnostic are really people who just don’t want discuss it.
As an atheist I view most religious beliefs and teachings (particularily the missinterpretation) as missing the mark. It’s ludicrous to assume that we have all the answers to life the universe and everything, it’s even more preposterious to claim we can know ‘god’.
Don’t get me wrong there are some good religious teachings: damn good stuff people should live their lives buy. It’s funny trying to put the question to a christian.. “ok I know you don’t believe in it, but you can’t deny that Karma isn’t a good philosophy to live your life by…”
The reason I reject religion especially conventional christianity is the glaring unrefutable flaws and hippocracies:
1. if there are over 2000 passages in the bible, some explicit, instructing christians to help the poor… why are christians predominatley right wing? and the most vehemont christians the most theiving lying right-wing extremists? that bothers me.
2. Gospels excluded from the bible, including the Gospel of Judas and Mary Magdalene, Thomas and others. Ok surposedly these were heresy, but actually reading them – bizzarely they are well coroberated by content in the bible. Infact in the 1960s the Vatician officially renounced the claim that Mary Magadalene was a prostitute under pressure from theologians who showed that the bible didn’t support the claim. I advise
3. By some estimates the slaughter of innocent lives the Vatican is responisble for makes the holocaust look like a picnic… most of them women…
4. Love thy neighbour… what if your neighbour is a muslim and wants a harem? What if they are homosexual and want a civil union and a cloned child? Your instructed to love them. Yes one of the ten commandments is effectively a tolerance message.
5. Most christians believe Eve was fashioned from Adams rib – this is infact a mistranslation from original text. a correct translation is she was made from “one side” of adam. There are more ‘mistakes’ in relgion..
6. Ok this is a little off topic and I sound like I’m attacking religion… what my point is really that these points contextualise the next point I’m making:
pogicraft: Interesting to read what you had to say from a religious perspective, but I’d like to counter your 5) remark:
I think deep down alot of religious people actually don’t truly believe, they know in their hearts what they believe just isn’t right, and that the truth may be different. And their greatest fear? That the truth might just be unknowable.
This psychological conflict triggers all the horrid behaviour of religious people. They deeply want to make others believe because they don’t truly believe- They fear, hate and want to harass and punish people that don’t believe what they do. Nothing but an intrinsic fear of otherness, to the point of dellusion.
Thus the atheism labels and myths slot us into the category of otherness.
Yet I have nothing but the deepest respect for people of mild faith. The really good people, who do good things because of what they believe and have nothing but tolerance and compassion for everyone and everything. But they are a minority…
The worst harm I’ll ever do is speak my mind…
Ignore it and you won’t be harmed…
ummm, i havent read every post simply because its like 4:30 in the morning here. you dont have to believe this, i heard it a while ago and the more i think about it the more i find it to be true, especially in my own life, but its human nature to follow something, by definition to worship something. the question is, what or who are you following, im a christian but i hate admitting it because there have been so many stupid people in the past and today as well that claim to be christians but do not follow the teachings that Jesus was ACTUALLY saying. tonight i spent some time with some friends of mine who were all drunk and some of them were even gay! *gasp*. some people would say that doing this would make not a christian, i agree with them, because i dont want to be a christan the way it is defined today. i would rather just follow the teachings of Jesus, love people with my life and love God with everything i have, can you call me stupid for that? sure. can you tell me im wasting my time? sure. but ive been to the place where my life feels empty and although you may have heard it before nothing fulfills the way Jesus does. theres a hole in my life that my dad left when he left me and never raised me or taught me how to live, ive tried to fill that hole with a lot of things, when im with a girl doing whatever, the hole is still there, when im infront of a crowd, performing and they love it, the hole is still there, when im sitting at my computer jerking off the hole is still there. sorry to be graphic but its the blunt truth. the only thing that has ever filled the hole in my life and in my heart is when im sitting in the peace that God will give if you seek his face, with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind. the question then is, “is it worth it to let God fill the hole?” i believe it is.
you can be an athiest and follow teachings that have only been around for, i dont know, 100 years? (i havent really done my research there and i appologise) or you can follow Jesus which people have been doing since the world was created. there was a pharasee who said to his other little pharasee friends in the bible, that if this Jesus thing is real, then it will last, but if its not, then people will realize it and it will die out. does this not seem logical? well its been 2000 years…thats a lot…
as a christian i am constantly questioning my faith and God, i was not taught like you have said to blindly follow something, and just accept something as truth just because the preacher said it, this is completely non-biblical, i try to test everything i am taught, i want to know what i am following. there have been too many preachers who are complete and total tools for me to just believe them, one rule of thumb for me is, if thier on TV, be very careful, be very weary. im not a stupid person, and i still believe that i can know God and have a relationship with him, i mean hes God, why not? if God is all powerful, what makes it so hard to believe that he has the power to connect with each person on an extemely personal level? whenever i hear a christian say, “i just can fathom the idea that God can do that.” i shake my head, HES GOD!!!! its so frustrating isnt it? cuz hes God and were not, i, as a christian, am not called to be perfect, thats his job. i am only called to be on his path. im sorry if i went on a rant or started preaching but its the only thing in life im this passionate about, so dont you dare tell me its wrong, if your a scientist and your passion is physics there is no way id go and tell you that it doesnt exist when you clearly know that it does.
What I found interesting about the article “16 common myths about aetheists” is that you seem to be assuming that all Christians think alike and none have the intelligence to properly study and research their beliefs and the beliefs of others in the way you seem to think you have.
“Now, dear believer, ask yourself how many atheist books, magazines or essays you have read.” It’s part of the training. I’m not a minister or priest or imam or anything but I do know that to get to those positions you don’t just turn up and ask if you can do it, there’s years of training. I can’t speak for the U.S.A. but I know ministers here in the U.K. have often had to do a degree in theology to get their position. And that’s not just to say Christian theology, it all systems of belief (and non-belief).
“…a unified group, like a church.” um…have you looked outside the window lately? seen any news. Catholics and protestants have been blowing each other up for years but recently even factions within the same Churchs have been split over key issues.
Christians aren’t one big group, an authodox Greek Christian wouldn’t neccesarily ‘fit it’ with the views of say an Evangelical Baptist for example, neither would Anglicans for that matter, or Methodists etc. There are many types of Protestant Christianity and Catholic Christianity, in Ethiopia the Christian beliefs and rituals are almost indistinguishable from Judaism to the untrained eye.
Many intelligent level headed people have looked at the evidence and decided that they believe rather than dis-believe. It doesn’t make them less intelligent than you or less well read, it just means they have a different opinion.
Seems to me, after reading most of the posts on here, the experiences the majority of these athiests have had or read about have been with people that claim to be Christians but really aren’t. So many people in America say they are Christian just because their parents or family are, or they attend church and read their Bible. If you know the teachings of the Bible, you know it takes more than this or even just simply believing in God to become a true Christian. I go to church sometimes, and when I encounter people that are true followers of the Word of God, I can tell there is definitely something different about them that sets them apart from the rest of the world.
I myself just haven’t been able to pray to a God that I have no proof exists, but I cannot rule it out as a possibility. In fact it takes infinite amounts greater in courage and discipline to have faith there is a God, when there is no undeniable evidence, than to simply believe there is not. So I give props to those who have chosen to believe in God through their own research, not the ones that just had it shoved down their throat as a child.
This is all pointless. Neither side will convince the other. This article was wrote because it was ment to a) Make religious people mad and, b) Tell them how wrong they are. I see no other reason for it. You can say that it was done so people would seen us in a differnt light, but its not true. On the other hand we can see that people that are religious people are doing the same thing here. Telling atheist just how wrong they are. There was never any point in writing this unless you really need others to validate your belief. No one will convnice you that there is a God. You don’t want to believe. As with people that belive in religon, there will be no convincing them either. The want to believe, as si there right. As is yours. I see the same thing with gay and lesbian vs. religon. If you really have a belief in some thing there seems no reason to force response from the oppsiing group. Unless your insecure with what you believe.
As for me belief. Thats none of your business. I believe what I believe.
Leave it at that.
I believe in God. To me there is no doubt. It has been through my own research, and my own study of scripture. I see to much around me that adds up to, to many “coincidences” to see other wise. I will not tell you you have to believe. That would be stupid and wrong. But don’t tell me I’m wrong becuase I believe different then you.
An Open-hearteed Christian reply to Atheism
I’m sorry you had the experiences you had with Christianity. By the way, many of the myths you stated are not shared by all Christians but only by the ones who feel threatened by atheism. Their fear of atheist views puts them in a state of ignorant defence, which makes for very judgmental statements, somewhat like the myths you speak of.
Here is my open-hearted reply to some statements you’ve made:
1. Most religions are dishonest.
Religion is honest. The men that run it are, at times, dishonest. Therefore, when run by the wrong men, some religions will end up being dishonest. Let God and God alone be your guide. Trust only in His Word. Since you say that MOST religions are dishonest, I guess you agree that some religions are honest, since you did say most and not all. Some religions are honest. So why are you still not believing? Myth number 1 is a poor excuse for defending your ignorance.
2. Most religions encourage people not to think or ask questions.
A religion that encourages people not to think or ask questions is clearly corrupt. Brute force conversion is wrong. Christianity is not about forcing and imposing beliefs upon non-believers. Rather, the Christian way is about presenting people with the Bible Truth, making this Truth accessible to them. However, whether they accept it or not is up to them. Brute Force conversion is not of God’s nature. God gives us the freedom to choose Him or the opposing world of sindifference.
3. After applying the standards of logic, reason, and burden of proof, religion failed the test, and all religious belief is a lie.
Religion is an organized system of faith and worship that brings us closer to God. Don’t you know that God is almighty. Our feeble human minds are unable to comprehend His greatness, which is of exceptional magnitude. Logic and reason only work in understanding things of this world. God is not of this world. Faith in Him is not of this world. Applying logic and reasoning to understand and test God will do exactly what it did to you, make you an atheist.
If you started to question God, you would have also started looking for answers. When it comes to God, we can’t look for answers as we would the answers to a math question. Logic and reason will only fail us. We must look for such answers in the only recollection of God we have, His Word. I’m glad you started asking questions about God, but you didn’t follow through. You didn’t turn to Him for the answers. We often ask questions but then hide from the answers because we fear that the truth which we long for is actually out there, and it opposes our narrow-minded structure of reality.
4. Christians love because they fear punishment. Atheists love because they want to love.
Christians are not loving out of fear. Rather, they are loving because God’s love overflows in them that they cannot contain it. Thus, it pours out to others. Christians love because Jesus is love and God is love. Christians love because it is what Jesus taught us to do. It makes me happy to know that you have human empathy, genuine feelings for others, and rational principles. There is a divine goodness at work in you. You are compassionate, you have morals, you care for others. There is a desire to do good in you. You have God’s love, for you are able to give love to others. There is a raw naturalness in you that makes you want to be good towards others. This very nature of which you are proves that you have come from God. However, it is the impending doom of your mind-made logic that caves you into atheism.
5. Christians are sheep-like and accept things by faith and authority.
Well-rounded Christians do not see athesists as a unified group, but simply as people who do not believe. Well-rounded Christians hold nothing against atheists for their unbelief, for we do not believe it is the person’s fault, but rather the fault of the devil at work in the world. Atheists are not sheep-like? Sure they are, look at them gather at a sale in a department store. or, how about the way they gather at a major sporting event. Or, how about the way they live their lives, wanting to grow up in the likeness of successful idols. We are all sheep, following different shepherds. Athesists, like Christians, DO accept things on faith and authority. Do they not trust the news anchors and accept their truth, because they are in fact televised news people? Do they not trust medical professionals because of their high education status? While Christians put faith in God, atheists put their faith in things of this world. While Christians abide by the authority of God, atheists abide by the authority of professionals and governments.
6. The existence of God is obvious only if you’ve been brainwashed.
No one brainwashed me to believe in God. I believe in God because He feels more real to me than all the things of this world combined. You see I was always a Christian, but not a real Christian until I saw m life come crashing down. That was when I knew that everything about the world had lied to me. And while the days were caving in around me, out of all the things and all the people of this world, not one of them was there for me like God was. I am only here today, able to write to you in this way because of God’s saving grace. I cried out to Him and He heard me. I placed my burden upon the Lord and He saved me. As He continues to save me to this day. Grasping God does not come by way of another’s attempts to convince you. Belief in God comes through the personal experience of God. And, How can you have a personal experience with God if you’re not pleading for Him to make Himself known to you.
I’m afraid that, until we see life in this world for what it really is, we will continue to be blind. How sad it is.
7. Athesists have read the Bible, Christians on the other hand will not read atheist books.
Most Christians will not want to read atheist books, because they’re already surrounded by an atheist culture and atheist world views, that they don’t need to be exposed to it yet again in their reading. Christians would prefer to use reading time as a way to escape the deceptions of the world around them in order to immerse themselves in God’s Truth.
8. Christians think there is no joy outside of God and depend on Him. They are not self-sufficient.
Self-sufficiency is absurd. No one is self-sufficient. How can you self-sufficiently save yourself from a deadly disease. How can you self-sufficiently save yourself from a burning building when you’re lying flat on the floor, unconscious in the middle of it. No one can provide for their own needs. Take hunger for example. You can provide for your hunger because you have money to buy food. You have money to buy food because you have a decent job. You have a decent job because you’ve acquired a skill. You’ve acquired a skill because you were able to learn that skill from someone else. At any one time in this chain of events, your fortune could have crumbled and you might not have acquired that skill which makes you useful. All goodes we have are provided by God. The very illusion of self-sufficiency, though foolish indeed, is only even possible because God has blessed us with so much. We are so moved by the much that we’re given that we forget about Who is that is giving it to us.
Take this example. You’re a little boy from a big family. Christmas time comes around and your surrounded by all sorts of boxes with your name on it. You happily open them all up and stand in awe at the great gifts. But, suddenly, you’ve been given so many gifts that you aren’t sure which one was from whom anymore.
You only realize that self-sufficiency is insane when you are faced with a situation that neither you, nor any of your abilities, can pull you out of.
9. Christians cannot love and enjoy life because they believe it is the devil’s world.
Christians love and enjoy life because it is given to us by God. Atheists love and enjoy life because they think the world is such a great place to be.
1 JOHN 2:15-16 “Don’t love the world, neither the things that are in the world. If anyone loves the world, the Father’s love isn’t in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, isn’t the Father’s, but is the world’s.”
God is not of this world. The devil is of this world. Anyone who loves the world is of the world, and clearly, does not know how horrible the world can be. Christians also believe life is precious. Only one life will soon be past. Only what’s done for Christ will last. That’s why life is precious to Christians. Life is precious to atheists because it’s their only chance to run wild and gather up all the goodies before time is up.
I agree, there is joy in being alive. Joy that we have been given a life to serve God and praise God. Athesists find joy in being alive because it means being able to indulge in the fleeting pleasures of this world. Oh dear atheists, you’re only scraping the surface. You’re missing the glorious cream filling of it all. The pleasures that come from God are far more satisfying than anything the world could offer.
You did not give yourself life. You did not create yourself. You did not purchase your life. Therefore, you do not own your life nor your body. You’re living a lease. Think of your body as your courteousy car. Though you had no choice in selecting it, it is your soul’s vehicle for existence on earth. The lease on this courteousy car expires at a pre-determined point in time. When the lease is up, you will be handed back to your rightful owner. If throughout your life, you refused to believe in God, indluged in the world, and thought of yourself as self-sufficient, then God does not become your owner anymore, satan does.
And even by handing you over to satan, God is love. He loves you so much that He lets you have what you desire. If throughout your life, you desired the things of the world more than God, then you desire satan, for God is not of this world.
You’re not your own. The choices you can actually make are rather finite. You are borrowed. You will be returned. Last time you borrowed an item, were you not careful with it because you wanted to return it to it’s owner in one piece? Did you not want to use the item you borrowed for its intended purpose and nothing more? Since using the item for anything outside of its purpose would put it at great risk. Did you not keep watch over the item, making sure no one would steal or damage it, because you wanted to return it in the same state in which it was given.
The same goes with you. Your life is borrowed, should you not be careful with it because you want to return it to your owner, God, unpoisoned by sin and sacrilege. Do you not want to use yourself for your owner’s (God’s) intended purpose and not for anything off limits? Because by doing so you’re not putting yourself at risk for corruption and damage. Imagine returning your borrowed self in a damage or corrupt state. Do you not want to return yourself in the same state in which it was given to you, that is, pure and holy? Do you not want to keep close watch over yourself, for fear that temptation and evil might come by and steal you away? Imagine that, losing yourself, what will you do when it comes time to return your borrowed self?
10. Christians only see things as beautiful because they seem to be an act of God (ex: rainbow)
The rainbow is not the work of man. That’s something I hope Christians and atheists can agree on. Knowing about astronomy, physics, and light do not make a sight any less beautiful. In fact, they render it even more beautiful because we’ve learned what intricate complexities are involved in such a phenomenon. And it is these intricate complexities that show us the splendor and magnificence of God. For the complexity of such beautiful phenomenons are not the work of man, but the work of a greater power among us.
Romans 1:20-21 “Ever since God created the world, his invisible qualities, both His eternal power and His divine nature, have been clearly seen; They are perceived in the things that God has made. So these people have no excuse at all! They know God, but they do not give him the honor that belongs to Him, nor do they thank Him. Instead their thoughts have become complete nonsense, and their empty minds are filled with darkness.”
11. Christians want to die and live depressed lives.
Christians do not go around crying out to be struck dead so that they can be taken into heaven. You have a very warped sense of true Christianity my friend. You’re right. At least you dont think that there’s a chance of going to a place where you burn and are tortured for eternity. It makes life much more enjoyable doesn’t it? Ignorance does that. That’s why they call it bliss. But oh how so temporary that bliss is. By outlawing the possibility of hell, you are able to live a happy, consequence-free life, just the way you like it. But you’re running from the truth by doing so. And there will come a time when you will have to face it. Then, you’ll be wishing you hadn’t been so ignorant. You’re procrastinating by thinking that there is no hell. Procrastinating like a child will delay doing his math homework so that he can play happily and entertain himself a little more and more and more. But, time catches up to the child, and he must do his homework if he doesn’t want to be put into the penance corner, away from all the other good little children. Do your homework before the deadline!
12. Most criminal inmates are Christians.
Yes but how many of them are real practicing Christians? How many of them have a real sense of what it means to be a Christian? How many of them know God? You see there are many who are labelled Christian, but very few who live up to the label. Just like there are many who wear the Nike logo, but only very few who can live up to the logo, the ones who work for Nike of course.
13. Christians are closed-minded
You are so right. Christians are closed-minded because they don’t operate by way of the mind as atheists would. Christians are open-hearted. They operate by way of spiritual insight that can only be felt at a deeper level than the brain, the heart level. The brain is one of the first organs to take in anything we percieve or experience. But for the heart to take in a perception or experience, it means that such a perception or experience had to be moving enough to evoke feelings at such a depth.
A Christian will not acknowledge the possibility of his belief being an error because of the certainty of God that he/she feels in and around them. Certainty found in God’s Word, certainty found in nature and its phenomenons, certainty found in their experiences of deliverance from danger, and certainty found in their hearts of constant prayer. A Christian will not acknowledge the possibility of his belief being an error, because he has faith. An atheists will acknowledge the possibility of his belief being an error upon seeing God, because he has no faith.
Romans 8:24-25 “It was by hope that we were saved; but if we see what we hope for, then it is not really hope. For who of us hopes for something we see? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.”
Faith is the trust in things unseen. Why does something become real only after we’ve seen it? When you dream in your sleep, you see a dream unfold, but you don’t believe it to be real, even though you’ve seen it. Dreams were made to teach us not to trust our minds when it comes to truth and reality. Our perception is our greatest deception. Our minds are capable of creating various holographic realities, like we see in dreams. What’s to say that the daytime reality that we perceive is in fact true? What if dreams are in fact the true reality? Our eyes can often fool us. Just like we disregard dreams because we are taught that they are untrue, it might be that we do the same while we are awake, subconsciously disregarding evidences of God in our daily life because of our stubborn self-imposed mind structure of life and what it all means. Our minds cannot tell real truth from simulated truth, we must trust with our hearts. God is the near-collision car crash avoided. God is the rain, the sun, the soil, and the seed, allowing fruits and vegetables to grow. God is the joy and peace of a child toward all living things, despite their physical traits. God is the everything and everyone and takes all forms in order to be near to us, for He loves us dearly.
You haven’t seen outer space, but you believe there is an outer space because you’ve seen it on television. But, then again you’ve seen movies that take place in outer space, but you knew they were fake because they were just movies. Then, how do you know the television version of outer space is really outer space? They could might as well be using computer simulation, like they do in the movies. Scientists say there is an outer space, and there’s a whole NASA thing going, and that gives you another reason to believe it. But, then again, Scientists also want you to buy a whole lot of their patented drugs so that their drug companies can get rich. So why even trust these high-profile liars in the first place? NASA, you say? You don’t see what NASA does, but you believe them anyway, isn’t that strange. Oh do they have a website? So do tons of online “businesses” who pose as fronts in order to scam you.
Let me conclude by sharing with you some answers on why people don’t believe and on why the world is in the state it is in today:
Romans 1:22-28 “They say they are wise but they are fools; Instead of worshipping the immortal God, they worship images made to look like mortals..And so God has given thosepeople over to do the filthy things their hearts desire, and they do shameful things with each other. They exchange the truth about God for a lie; They worship and serve what God has created instead of the creator himself, who is to be praised forever! Amen. Because they do this, God has given them over to shameful passions….Men do shameful things with each other, and as a result they bring upon themselves the punishment they deserve for their wrongdoing.”
-if you worship and spend more time with idols (things of this world) rather than with God Himself, then God lovingly gives you over to your heart’s desires, the things of this world. No wonder you cannot see God and you cannot believe God. Isn’t it amazing, God loves you and punishes you at the same time. He loves you by giving you over to your desires, and He punishes you by that same act. For when you are indulging in the desires of the world you are given over to, you cannot know God, and are kept from experiencing the joy and satisfaction found in Him.
Romans 1:28-32 “Because people refuse to keep in mind the true knowledge about God, he has given them over to corrupted minds, so that they do the things they should not do. They are filled with all kinds of wickedness, evil, greed, and vice; they are full of jealousy, murder, fighting, deceit, and malice. They gossip and speak evil of one another; they are hateful to God, insolent, proud, and boastful; they think of more ways to do evil; they disobey their parents, they have no conscience; they do not keep their promises, and they show no kindness or pity for others. They know that God’s law says that people who live in this way deserve death. Yet not only do they continue to do these very things but they even approve of others who do them.”
-if you refuse to become wise by God’s Word, you let yourself become vulnerable. And so you are taken over by the corruption of the world. The corruption of the world makes people evil, greedy, self-centered, and uncaring, to name a few. These traits then produce the murderers and haters that make up a large part of the world today. Even if those taken over by the world’s corruption know what they do is wrong, they continue to become more corrupt and approve of others who are like them. These are side-effects of an insufficiency of God in them. The world is what it is today because of an insufficiency of God in our hearts.
I don’t want to be playing a mine is better than yours game. What it all comes down to anyway is that God is greatest over all. Amen.
Came across your myth list by accident, and totally agree with your statements.
As an atheist myself, these myths permeate all the abrahamic faiths even, islam which i was raised as, where even questioning ‘God’ is frowned upon.
I remember as a child asking the imam ‘ If god is so perfect and all powerful ,,,,, Why the need for prayer and worship isnt that a sign of vanity ?
you can imagine his response :}
ps, the bible is not the word of god, it was written by ‘human beings’ decades after the death of Jesus, and the modern church which follows the gospel of St Paul – wasnt even a disciple.
Hi Coolokie, I type kinda’ slow too so by the time I responded to your comments 2 or 3 other folks typed something else. I’m definately no pro at all this stuff… and my comments aren’t from talking points of any kind, it’s just stuff I’ve wondered about.
What I meant by the, “Well, there is no God so …” comment was that, to me, it just “seems” implied from the start that there is no God. I’m pretty sure that they would never actually say that. However, once in my high school biology class the teacher commented that the coccyx was “where your tail used to hang”. He didn’t say that it was a theory, just a fact. I sort of got a pained look on my face I guess, so the next thing he did was ask if there was anyone that didn’t believe that we evolved from apes and a handful raised their hands. Being a shy nerd, it was more than a little painful for me.
The word Christian, from what I understand, means to be “Christ-like”, not to “be” Christ. He was perfect, we are most definately not but I think we’re supposed to at least give it the old college try. There’s more to being a Christian than being afraid of going to Hell. Would it be better for your child to do something that you asked them to do because they love you and respect and appreciate the sacrifices that you’ve made for them rather than be afraid of a swift kick in the butt if they don’t?
Sorry, now I’m rambling.
Thank you Zak for proving one of my points.
“Came across your myth list by accident, and totally agree with your statements.” Zak
Zak totally agrees. Thereby, proving the Word of God that I quoted above as True: “Yet not only do they continue to do these very things but they even approve of others who do them.”
God doesn’t need our prayers nor does He need our worship. Prayer is for is. It allows us to reach out to God and ask for His help.
Saying “If god is so perfect and all powerful ,,,,, Why the need for prayer and worship?” is like saying “If my teacher is so good at math, why should I do my homework and give her the answers, she knows them already”. We worship God so that we can better come to know and understand how great in magnitude His glory really is. God already knows how glorious He is. It is our purpose to know and understand how glorious He really is, and then let others know. That’s what worship is for. That God may make His glory known to us. Worship is our acknowledgment of His glory.
The Bible was written by human beings, inspired by God. God willed the writings to be done. And God willed them to be kept alive for over 2000 years. Now can you say that about any human author?
The Bible (New and Old Testaments) were written and re-written many, many times, by humans of course. Are you aware of any animals that have or had the ability to write? Because if you do, please do amuse us with your knowledge. Many people had kept their own personal written accounts of Jesus during His time. After the death of Jesus, these written accounts were shared and put together to give us the New Testament passages we have today.
St.Paul was a disciple. Zak you are so factually flawed. A disciple is someone who believes in and helps to spread the doctrine of Jesus. Which is exactly what Paul did.
Paul’s disciple life started when Barnabas, a follower of Jesus, called him to work in Antioch in A.D. 43. No wonder Paul’s written accounts were written decades after the death of Jesus, because that’s when he became a disciple.
I myself am atheist, firstly you make some pretty sweeping statements there, on occassions you attempt to prove your point by simply repeating a statement but directing it at christians… You also make atheists seem ‘wonderful’ when you say things such as an atheist parent would never do that to their child. You can’t say those things are myths as some are true of atheists and therefore factual to an extent. And although I’m kind of talking my own beliefs down, the majority of atheists I know are incredibly arrogant lol. Including myself. I apologize from diverging from your theme of myths about atheists btw, I just felt you needed to be told off…
The real thing I’ve found by reading most of these posts is that both sides really want the same thing: respect for their beliefs and the right to practice them without criticism. The real truth is, no one truly “knows” what happens after we die, nor how we got here, but we all must find our own reasons to live and love, and if we do that our life is a success and, hopefuly, if there is a God he/she/it will recognize that and not deny us for trying our best to live. As it was already said, if there is a God, our feeble human minds have no way of comprehending him/her/it and therefore it is somewhat foolish to even try to tell someone else that they are not living the way God wants them to.
Mike, I agree that both sides want respect for their beliefs. However, what atheists have to realize is that part of being a Christian is the spreading of the gospel. It’s part of their beliefs. So to respect the Christian belief is to accept that Christians will want to talk to you about Jesus.
Xavier: And that’s why Christians are so annoying. Yes, they want others to be “saved” and by following this premise, they can’t possibly respect athiests or other religions for that matter. I respect other religions like Buddhism just because they don’t stick a freakin’ Bible in your face whenever you try to walk somewhere. However, whenever a Christian walks in my path and says, “Have you been touched by Jesus yet?” I just want to take out my 1000 page molecular biology book and slap him in the face with it. Life would be better if everybody just made religion a personal matter instead of having it intrude into other people’s daily lives.
And by the way, every post so far that has been used to defend Christianity has not come out of true reasoning, but rather from the pages in Bible. No athiest ever says, we are right because that’s what page 146 in my science book says! Can you guys think for yourself for once?
I Am God: You miss the point. How can you say you respect Christianity when you can’t respect one of it’s basic premises? When a Christian approaches me on the street I just say, “Sorry, I’m not interested.” at which point they leave me alone. I respect that they tried, as is their lot (and a miserable one at that), and they respect that I don’t want to hear about it. I think the problem is you’re taking it personally. You think they’re doing it out of a desire to “improve” you (which implies that you need “improvement”). To be sure, some Christians do it because they’re either obligated, shamed, or even coerced into it, which is just wrong. But for the most part, Christians do it because they’re grateful, and are just passing the word. If you can’t see that, then you’re just proving the myth that atheists are close-minded.
im not taking the time to read what other people said about your list because all i want to express is my point of view, not considering what has been said earlier.
bye
in your list i think you are snobbing christians. you make a general fact, what a minority of people actually think, which is, that being an atheist is bad, we sound like a bunch of evil fucks in fact. as far as im concerned i entirely respect atheist, as it is their decision to believe or not to.
in some of your points, your first of all only enunciating what a little % of christians actually think, and secondly, you make us look like complete brainless ‘sheeps’ (im quoting you). would you generalize what an extremist islamist might say to what all muslims think? no i dont think so. plus the way your putting things it seems that we live our lives according to what the bible says word for word, well let me tell you that’s not true (i do admit that it is the case for certain people, but trust me they arent numerous, because as you can guess not that many people want to limit their life to what they think God said). when i started reading your list i thought it was a good idea to share your ideas and clear false thoughts about atheists, but then i got to a certain point where you were indirectly saying that christians were idiots (hence ‘Was it beautiful only because it seemed “magical” – or “an act of god” – to you?’, as if we only thought it was nice because we didnt know what it was…and thats not including the ironic comments like ‘ Christians who believe that the world is evil, “please, Lord Jesus, take me” ‘).
Lots of christians, if not all of them, contrarily to the way people believed in God in the middle ages and before,do ask themselves if there really is something, a blessing presence looking over the world…what do you think seriously…it is a bit abstract isnt it? so yes of course we sometimes wonder if what we believe is not just a stupid load of bullcrap made up to manipulate thousands of people, but the difference between you and me, between atheists and christians, is that we do find something that makes us have faith. but we’re not blind people following the person in front of us, its our choice.
this list was a good idea i understand why you did it, you did it so christians would understand atheists better and respect them (sorry if im wrong), but if this really is the reason you should of been more careful about some of your words, because your losing your credibility by showing agressivity and doing the clear oposite of what you seem to be fighting for.
but nice job
Wow….A lot of conflicting information…A lot of Opposing Views….And a lot of bullsh*t flung from all sides.. Now this is a good discussion. And I really mean that. I have a question to pose…..if somehow science fiction became science reality/fact or Heck even if God(I know I know every “believer” will say god would never do a thing like this, it’s just a metaphor) himself created it- If a time machine could be constructed to see the truth – Whether on the side of Christians or Atheists or which ever other Religion exists or has exisited at anytime in human hsitory —– Now here’s the kicker Would you want to know the “truth” (no matter how damaging to you personal beliefs)? And would you change because of it? Or mearly dismiss it as a trick? And now my opinion(you knew I had to have one) , As an atheist I would want to know….But I asked a friend of mine, who is a now a priest, the same question…He said he didn’t need to – His faith was all he needed. And I found that answer fascinating….The difference between us is faith….My lack of it and lack of need for it and his absolute belief in it and need for it. Who’s right? Who’s wrong? Both of us and Neither of us…..I fail to see how he can believe with just faith and he fails to understand how I can’t believe in a world with no higher power. Sorry this probably only makes sense to me……Life is Life…”To Each Their Own”…Your not right and neither am I. And a man(or woman) who is open-minded enough to entertain the possibilities that they are wrong..Then they can believe anything they want and I will respect that position, IF you will offer me the same courtesy. Now live your life the way you want……but remember I am doing the same….I can live with you – Can you with me? Time will tell…
My aunt and uncle are pentecostal christians (Sheryl and Bernard).. In order to try to better understand her beliefs I asked her how she might explain the dinosaurs.. She said “Ask Bernard – he knows more about that stuff than me…” No independent thoughts of her own on the matter.. I called her to say we were coming over to see her 2 kids.. when we arrived she said “God told me you were coming” … Hang on.. No… I told you we were coming.. I called you.. “Yeah well, god told me you’d call” … strewth! You can’t win!
I respect Atheists, perhaps more so since I’m not a fundamentalist Christian
But seriously though, I think there’s a SERIOUS confusion between “rationalism” and “atheism” as not all atheists are rationalists and not all rationalists are necessarily atheistic. I could go more into detail but I’m sure you get my point.
Stu: LOL! You’re right.
Ok Christians. Speak now. PLEASE EXPLAIN THE DINOSAUR PHENOMENON or the FOSSILS OF NEANDERTHALS AND HOMO ERECTUS. If you can’t explain them, you lose and the Bible is fraud. Or maybe Noah forgot to put the dinosaurs on his ship?
Xavier:
I believe that what the bible said is to share the word, not force it onto people that have no interest in hearing it. In this message baord, for example, you are sharing the word because there have been a lot of questions about Christianity. Ask to receive, that sort of thing. When, however, you tell people they are going to burn in Hell for their wrong doings and they must repent and read the bible when they are just minding their own business, you are forcing the word. Telling someone on the side of the street that they are living incorrectly when you know nothing about them or their situation is not only wrong, it’s unchristian.
I am God: There were dinosaurs on the ark. There are dinosaurs today. A crocodile is a dinosaur. A dinosaur is simply another reptile, which there are plenty of today. And just for the record, Noah wasn’t responsible for putting the animals on the ark.
I believe that athiests are entitled to their opinions. You guys don’t have to believe in God. No one is going to make you. It takes guts to stand up as an atheist in a world full of religious belief systems.
I’m curious though, from what I’ve seen, athiests seem to have an awful lot of problems with Christians and the Christian belief system, but tend not to worry about other belief systems so much (Buddhism, Judaism, Islam etc.). Is this true?
We all live in christian society.
So its just the most relevant to most of us.
I being niether and atheist or a christian (I would call myself a thinker before anything) Have noticed flaws on both sides. Between direct contradictions I personally have noticed in the bible, such as a good god calling for sacrifice in his name which thus defies the word good in and of it’s self, which I agree with the atheist on that life is precious and is your own, regardless of race (as in human/animal not skin color, melanin doesn’t change your race IMHO which is also another topic). And atheists believeing that all religions thinking that they are so pig headed that they dont question their faith. Now to end the rather lame examples. And on to the most likely flamed probably making you really mad at this point, and in my opinion frank and poorly worded 3rd person prospective (and a tad off topic, but still relative in a sense).
Now Christians pay attention here: When you believe something as a whole *poor estimation* 500 million people what happens if some vicar or the pope says wait wait wait we misinterperited that (not likely but just an example) what do you do? You can’t change a belief, it’s impossible people will die over it and this in it’s self is ungodly by your standards. Why not have an idea of what it means? Considering that man had the pen in their hands and under your “beliefs” Man is fallible and thus not capable of being truely godly, would this not lead to a possibility of a misinterpretation? This is one of the atheist customs/techings/ideals, and one I agree with.
Second, Realise that just because you believe something, doesn’t mean everyone else will and some will be directly opposed to it, take this with a grain of salt and move on.
And last, also know that in organization always comes from corruption and since you started your religion there will and has always been corruption in your religion no offense honestly I’m just letting you know there’s always someone who wants to bend/break the rules and usually someone else likeminded/easy enough to convince into the same mindset. And as this ties into a couple other points I’m trying to get across, it’s reather important and something you might look at if you are an open minded individual and not so strung up on beliefs, as opposed to faith and ideas.
And be weary of double standards as the bible holds a few of them if you look hard enough, being and ex-christian, this had a lot to do with my straying from organized religion along ith my last point. (hehe told you that point was relavent to a lot of my other points)
As was pointed out in the 16 myths the one of Abraham for instance is thus a double standard not even 2 books later I believe it was worded: “Thou Shalt Not Kill” Also relavent to my first point.
Now Atheists: *end disclaimer* Be aware I dont know much about atheism for one. *end Disclaimer* I believe that yall are closer but still no cigar, to believe that there is no possibility that there is a god is a direct contradiction of your beliefs as well (I’m guessing but it’s semi educated you might say)
I know someone commented on the faith issue, saying that atheist believe: if you can’t see it it doesn’t exist, and that just because you can’t see oxygen it isn’t there, Well one thing going for atheist they are semi jstified as you can see oxygen with the right kind of equipment, and the facts the underly in it’s molecular compound justify it’s not being visible to the naked eye. Kind of a faith without viable justification as opposed to faith in something thats more then an acient scroll writed by man but interprited as gods word, or hearsay.
Atheist also, have beliefs that there is no holy being and this I believe is their falicy, to consider yourself open minded you must also consider you may be really friggin wrong. I know atheism is a kinda loose form of ideas as opposed to a belief system but none the less it’s a common quality.
SuperTiph, that might have something to do with Bhuddist, Judaism, and the islamic faiths now shoving thier faith in every open orifice they can get it in, push a man once he asks you what you push a man twice and expect a fight. But I agree with your second “pararaph” entirely.
In short ideology before theology will get a lot more progression then stagnation. Also all side and I mean EVERY Religion belief system etc. needs to learn that it’s not always clear as day instead of taking what someone else interprits XXX verse means figure it out for yourself take notes, find the meaning not the wording, make your religion your own, I mean would you trust someone else with your eternity/72 virgins/non-primordial existance/reincarnation etc. ? Things change including how you should take in your religion. It should be more of a way of life then your life, no god wants you to do nothing but serve them unrelentlessly till your dying moment.
And thats the poorly worded disconected views of a 17 year old kid, take it with a grain of salt realise I did put a bit of my own personality into it, in a hopefully unbiased form. More then anything I gave my point of view, as opposed to what someone told me when I was a kid. I dont believe in the do it and I’ll spank you ideoligy, nor the do whatever there is no god lets go kill people for the hell of it philosophy (which i know is not atheist, just kinda pointing that I have morals too even though I dont follow a specific creed). I merely believe religion from all points of view have it wrong some how or some way, even my own, when they agknowledge this they will be able to progress and come full circle, but this wont happen because of organization, and the belief concept.
ooooh sorry for the double post but I saw a piece of scripture posted by Seranaid that intrigued me:
1 JOHN 2:15-16 “Don’t love the world, neither the things that are in the world. If anyone loves the world, the Father’s love isn’t in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, isn’t the Father’s, but is the world’s.”
Now let me ask you some questions all about your “beliefs”:
Did God make Earth?
yes obviously. (and yes I’m going some where with this)
Would a good god turn control of a planet he made, full of people in his image, over to someone who defied him and showed himself to be purely engendered with hate and malice, much less his people?
I believe this would directly contradict his world and negate all existance, through dogmatic law.
Would he then call his own world and creation something that isn’t his?
sounds like a direct contradiction IMO, I mean he did make the world did he not?
Do you believe god didn’t give us free will to make us own our own lifes?
It would be teasing us if that were not the case, who decides what you eat for breakfast God or you?
I mean even jesus had free will he did turn water to wine after all, sounds like he wanted to party, which also is a decree god
made, saying that drunkeness is ungodly, yet his son can get a horde of party goers plastered off some holy wine, and even get
drunk himself?
now for a little scripture right back to ya Genesis 1:18:
to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good.
Now compare this to your scripture you posted and see if you can find the contradiction.
Well just a little reasoned aregument for you. And kind of a backing to my first post, look and you shall find feed your self, who says the preacher man know better then you, some seminary?.
Personally I don’t think that the theory of evolution and Christianity are at odds. I think a lot of the Bible is apocryphal. If literally two people started the whole human race, what we now know about genetics would mean it would have been an unhealthy time to be alive and as for the 7 days of creation…how did we measure a day before light even existed?
I think that things like “7 days” and “Adam and Eve” were attempts by man to simplify the story for the understanding of the people at the time the Bible was written. Try to explain the big bang to a people that, for example, haven’t discovered electricity yet and it will sound mythical.
If you think of those 7 “days” as 7 periods of time or 7 ages then dinosaurs slot right in neatly with mans ascent from apes etc.
The Bible doesn’t mention God’s actual detailed method for creating man, what if he chose one of his former creations (apes) as a substrate and decided to develop them into a new creature (man), if he’s timeless and ageless than sparking off evolution and waiting for a bit is no big thing. The apocraphyl method (man from dust and woman from mans rib) shows that he likes to make things from things that already exist.
And as for dust…we are all stardust, everything that exists now was once part of a star at the big bang so everthing everywhere is made from dust.
And what better way to “let there be light” than a big bang or the creation of a star from a black hole.
He must be good at making stuff because light wasn’t the first thing he made…so he made the heavens and earth IN THE DARK! …lol
*** Disclaimer. These are THEORIES of my own, just stuff I read in the Bible that have stuck with me over the years, I have no actual proof. ***
1. Doesn’t this sound a little like a dinosaur? I’ve heard it said that this was a hippopotamus, but a hippo doesn’t have a tail like a cedar tree.
“Job 15: Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.
16: Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.
17: He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.
18: His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.”
2. Doesn’t this sound a little like a plesiosaur? Some folks think it’s a whale, but whales don’t look like dragons or serpents to me but a plesiosaur sort of does.
“Isaiah 1: In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.”
3. I can’t find where it says that Jesus drank the wine. From what I understand wine was grape juice, “old” wine was, well, wine.
“John 7: Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.
8: And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.
9: When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
10: And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
11: This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.”
Also, I’ve had what I consider a couple minor miracle type things happen to me if anyone’s interested. I don’t want to get too “preachy” on you.
Dody Toka, I appreciate your questioning.
You state that man is fallible and thus not capable of being truly godly. Therefore, even if the Pope someday says that they’ve found a misinterpretation in the Bible, we wouldn’t believe it. After all, the Pope is a man, and is fallible because he is a man. I totally agree with you about man being fallible. But we have to remember that those men who wrote the Bible did not write it on their own. They were guided by the divine power of the Holy Spirit. The Bible is the result of a divine intervention upon man. The Holy Spirit was the driving force of inspiration for Biblical writings. Look at it this way: We push buttons on a keyboard, and the computer writes things down. The computer on its own is without words, without inspiration. We are feeding the computer with thought-processed ideas put into a language of communication. Man who wrote the Bible was like the computer. God filled their minds and their hearts with truth and inspiration and gave them the words to write down.
You’re right, just because Christians believe something, doesn’t mean everyone else will. I understand that some will be directly opposed to it. But the reason for which Christians want to spread the Word of God to others is because it truly has life-changing power. The only reason many can’t see it is because they have gone blind by the world, which is satan’s doing. If you don’t see or understand God’s truth, then you’ve gone blind. Blinded by the distractions (TV, GAMES, MOVIES) and blinded by a state of mind that tells you to trust in human logic and reason in order to make sense of divine truth. A human brain will never be able to grasp the splendor of divinity. Christians believe and have faith, not because their mind tells them so, but because they have opened themselves to God, letting His truth give life to their soul. Only when God ignites your soul will you start to kindle with certainty for His truth.
God is always trying to let Himself be known to us. The Bible is not dead reading material. It becomes alive everytime it is read. You don’t read the Bible, the Bible reads you. Only when you approach it with appreciation and an open heart will the Bible let you be moved and transformed by its life-giving power.
The Bible has what appear to be contradictory statements but if we dig deeper and investigate them, then we begin to understand that there is in fact no contradiction. Abraham’s obedience towards God, up to the point of sacrificing his own son for God, is meant to show how strong his faith in God is. So strong that he would put God’s order above any emotional reasoning he might have experienced by this confrontation. Abraham’s obedience towards God is meant to teach us that obeying the direct intervention of God is of a higher priority than obeying the commandments. Also, an important note to mention is that the Ten Commandments were not yet around in the time of Abraham. They had been given to Moses, who came generations later. This part of Abraham’s story was meant to teach man to end all human sacrifices offered to God. For God did not approve of them, and neither did He want them.
Yes, God created Earth. God did not turn control of the planet over to satan. God still has control over the planet and all that inhabits it. God will destroy satan come the Day of Judgment. To answer the why would God let a good creation turn evil statement you made:
The world was created and it was good. It was paradise, a garden of Eden. Then God created Adam and Eve. God told Adam and Eve to tend to the garden and commanded them not to eat from the attractive Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. A serpent(satan) tempted Eve to want to have knowledge. Eve then tempted Adam. They then eat fruit form this forbidden tree. By this knowledge, Adam became aware he was naked and felt ashamed. God then sentenced both to death, as well as the serpent. God expelled them from
the garden because of their disobedience. I believe that evil was expelled from the garden of Eden by this act. Since Adam and Eve allowed the serpent to tempt them, the serpent was expelled with them. This is why evil and sin is with us humans today. Satan was expelled along with the human counterparts that gave in to him. The garden of Eden is still good, unfortunately we’ve been expelled from it by our giving in to temptation. God did not create the serpent. The serpent was created to be good, just as Adam and Eve were.
However, God created all creations with free will. It is the free will of the serpent and Adam and Eve that caused them to choose to give in to temptation. The serpent was tempted to tempt Eve. Eve was tempted to tempt Adam. All was good upon its creation. All would have remained good if those tempted by the lingering presence of evil would have obeyed God. Through the serpent, sin came into the world. And so, everytime we are confronted with a temptation that goes against God’s instruction for us, we musn’t give in. We must not take what we’ve been given for granted. For at any second, we could be expelled from it all. And while we think that we’re getting away with it, we’re actually taking our sinful selves further and further away from the Garden of Eden that awaits us. But you don’t want to take too many steps away from it without remembering to taking the same number of steps back, through repentance.
All creations have a choice. To give in to arising temptations even though there are commands that state otherwise, or to obey the commands of God. The 10 commandments are a summary. To truly know the details of what we are commanded to obey, we must read the whole Bible.
Jesus turned the water into wine to show the power of God present in Him. This was Jesus’ first miracle where He revealed His glory and His disciples believed in Him. He never instructed anyone to drink it. If anyone got drunk over it, it was by their own free will. The Bible never states that anyone, or Jesus for that matter, got drunk on this wine. It wasn’t the wine they were supposed to get drunk on, it was the miracle and presence of God’s power among them that they were supposed to get drunk on.
So I can easily see a follow-up article entitled “16 Myths of What Athiests Believe Christians Believe About Athiests” if you can follow all that. The only one of the 16 that I have ever known a Christian to say, believe, or prove through action about Athiests is #5–one I felt you very poorly defended that one. The reson Christians believe this, however, is not as an attack on athiesm, but rather as a core part of the Christian belief. You may have seen, in you several times of reading the Christian bible something along the lines of “The heavens declare the glory of the Lord, there is no tongue or language where there voice is not heard.” So this is not some myth that has been made to spite of your non-beliefs. In fact, however, through your list of 16 Myths you have based many of the defenses upon common misconceptions of Christianity (which seems to be the butt of all your remarks). SO therefore I can understand the folk above who have assumed your tone “arrogant”. But all that aside, I wish mainly to address the matters of morality and Creationism.
Morality in the eyes of a true athiest can be nothing more than essentially selfish. Here I do not use “selfish” with a negative connotation, but rather with the trueness of the word. One who believes there is none higher than him/her/itself can think of nothing other than him/her/itself as a general rule. Therefore the ultimate morality is: you do what you want, I do what I want, and we’re all happy…as long as what you do doesn’t hurt, offend, convict, hinder, or discomfort me–and since I demand that of you, I suppose it would be “wrong” of me to do something that would do any of those things to you. You proved this in your argument about not teaching things in school, wasting your tax dollars posting “idiocies”, and the else. You don’t want to be offended–why? Because you think of nothing higher than yourself–selfish (again, no negative connotations intended). Therefore morality is self-based and should be more accurately termed “selfality”. I’m not sure what kind of Christians you have encountered that would promt you to write that they do things because they are afraid of hell. Fear is not the the basis of anything valid in the Christian Bible. In fact it’s just the opposite–”perfect love drives out fear”. All the teachhings of Christ are to free Christians from the fear of death/hell/punnishment/”daddy’s spankings”. “Christians” who act, or abstain from acting, because of fear of hell are not believing what they ought, and therefore I can understand your anger towards them.
Creationism–as a science, you win. It is not scientifically provable beyond a shadow of a doubt. But then is the alternative? You say creationism has the burden of proof, and people who teach their children such are crippling them–what about evolution? Evolution faces a more grave danger. Not only is eveolution in the same boat when it comes to burden of proof, evolution is based entirely upon the “R”-word. That’s right, ask any evolutionist out there, “Are you racist?” A HUGE majority of them will quickly grunt a, “No way.” Then ask them, “Do you believe in evolution?” and since they are evolutionists all will with out a doubt reply affimatively. But can we then separate people from racism when they believe an entire theory based solely upon one man’s predjudice? Darwin–the world’s most loved racist. This man is truly an paradox to be explored! Through his travels of the world he encountered a tribe of peoples and determined that they could not be human. “Surely these are not people, but monkeys!” he probably thought to himself. There you have it…the beginning of evolution. Racism!!! The world loves him for it! Now, all the American, British, French and other caucasian slave traders of about the same time we can condemn because the people they thought were not human were being hurt, killed, starved and driven out of their countries; but Darwin–he just made a theory of the world’s beginning based upon that same hatred. No harm done, right…so let’s praise him for it. So as for your argument for science and science classes–I don’t know what to say.
Should we then cripple our students by teaching trust, hope, and faith, or poison them with hatred and racism then expect them to find some ounce of morality out of selfality?
I think you covered the list nicely. I have a few things to point out.
You should have contrasted Myth #2 (Atheists are former Christians) with Myth #5 (Atheists know nothing of Christianity). These two are nearly opposites and can be compared against each other.
As an atheist (and former catholic) I don’t hate religion, I think it performs a valuable service in our society and should be retained. No matter how sophisticated we become, we will always have individuals who are weak minded, indecisive, and so on. We’ve all grown up with folks like this, they need structure and order in their lives. People like this, who need a crutch, have few options. They can drown their problems with alcohol and drugs, join the military, or become involved in a church. Certainly no one wants to see anybody go down the path to substance abuse and eventual early death. The military is a good option for some. I know several former classmates who were discipline problems in high school, they joined the military and became amazing model citizens. What they needed was structure and purpose, and the military can provide that. But the military isn’t for everyone. Religion resolves the structure and order problem for the remainder of society. If everyone were to be atheists, and religion did not exist, then a segment of the population would be left without an option to guide them.
In terms of morality, I find that other atheists are much more atuned to morality than non-atheists because each and every one of us has had to define our own moral code by ourselves. We’ve spent time thinking of scenarios and right and wrong, immediate affects and future affects. Most non-atheists just adopt their religion’s moral code without serious thought. To be an atheist you have to willing to put in some time and effort and seriously think about actions and their consequences. This takes time, lots of time. Atheists are not mentally lazy!
Enjoy!
i have always thought like this.
if i choose a religion and get it wrong well im screwed.
but if i dont choose a religion at least i am not pissing god off as much.
Dody Toka: “It should be more of a way of life then your life, no god wants you to do nothing but serve them unrelentlessly till your dying moment.”
I agree absolutely with that statement. If there is a God, I really doubt he would want us to pray for all the time. He would have created us and just let us be, not have to worship him. How vain can he be?
SuperTiph: You are wrong. Dinosaurs are more my birds than they are like reptiles, believe it or not. And you didn’t answer my question about where they appear in the Bible.
Tracy: Finally, your the first Christian that has answered my Dinosaur question. Unfortunately, the lines that you use are so open to interpretation. When an item is worded like that, you can interpret it to be any large animal. The problem with most Christians is they argue by interpretting the Bible in a way so it justifies their point. The animal that is described could be ANY large animal, like a rhino or a elephant.
This description, “Isaiah 1: In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.” is a lot better than your first, but there have been so many dragons in all time periods and cultures, China, Medieval, etc. that it is still ambiguous.
When you show me a line that is not ambiguous at all or better yet, a freakin picture from the Bible, then I’ll convert. A line like,
“There lay a beast as large as a tree with 300 razor sharp teeth, wimpy front claws, humongo hind legs and tail, leathery skin, and it’s eating this small animal with three long horns protruding from its face.” would suffice.
Also, I still wait for a talk about the Neanderthals and the other primordial humans in the Bible.
fooboo: Your interpretation of the 7 days as 7 ages is what a lot of Christians say, but think of it this way. If you were writing the Bible and you had to explain to a bunch of guys how the world was created and you knew it took a lot more than 7 days, would you still say 7 days or is it so hard to say A REALLY LONG TIME. Does the description sound like it’s coming more from a guy who has NO IDEA how everything was created, or someone who actually had a clue? If I had no clue about how the world was made I would say, “The rays of the sun created the earth and the moon and the whole universe in an hour or so.” There was no way for them to fathom the extent of the universe beyond the sun, earth, and moon. Now we know that the earth isn’t the center of the universe and that we are just a tiny spec in a ginormous world.
ps: A little trivia here: ‘days’ could have also been translated to be ‘a period of time’
besides saying most of the neanderthal fossils found were just normal humans with disfigurement diseases, its also possible that humans have changed a little in these 5000 years, that what we percieve as ‘homo sapiens’ today, are not structurally equal to what humans had been in the first days.
Also, its wrong for christians to be ignorant. Because God made everything, everything comes back to God. There have been many scientists that have converted simply because they could not stand and believe everything they see had simply sprung from chance. There are things you learn about God by studying the bible, and also things you learn about Him by studying His creation; things like His beauty, His power, His attention to details — how the ecosystem works just perfectly and how a single extinction would disrupt this ‘circle of life’
last word: Being a Christian is a journey. There is no magic in saying that prayer that makes you a completely different person. It is a lifelong seeking and growing. Most people don’t try to seek but rather use religion to back up their own views. These actions do not please the Lord. This is why there are so many Christians that are corrupt.
[...] Steve from Poetic Pilgrimage has written a detailed reply to my 16 myths about atheists post called An Open-hearted Christian Reply to Atheism (which he also posted on the discussion thread). I think it’s well written, and it’s always nice to have a intelligent discussion where people disagree but respect each other’s opinion. Therefore, it deserves a full reply (to the reply) so here it is. [...]
So the Bible doesn’t mention dinosaurs specifically. So what? Last time I checked, my textbook on the history of Asia doesn’t either, but I don’t chuck it out the window because of it. Will the fact that the Bible mentions Brachiosaurs by name really stop me from cheating on my physics exam? Will knowledge of Pteranodons really stop me from committing adultery? The Bible is not meant to be a science textbook, but rather a manual for how to live our lives, so as such it only comments SPECIFICALLY on issues that affect us (DO NOT KILL, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT COVET, DO UNTO OTHERS AS THEY WOULD DO TO YOU). You have to ask yourself, are you really interested in facts or just dodging the big issues?
As a Christian, I know that I do not believe any of the 16 myths that were mentioned, and in a way I wish I could apologize for all of the bad attitudes and ignorance many Christians show, because I know that none of that is what God wanted.
God gave us intelligence for a reason, and it isn’t so that we can have a blind-faith. ‘be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you’ (1 Peter 3:15): I quote the bible not to prove any part of Christianity, but to show that Christians are called to have reasons for their hope which give viable answer to questions of its existance. Even the apostle Paul went around “giving defense” for Christianity.
And Christians who go around putting down people of different beliefs and condemning people… I’m sorry for the negative impact they may have had in some of your lives. Jesus’ example of God’s love was one where he was able to associate with prostitutes and taxcollecters (who were considered worse than prostitutes at that time).
I also have to agree that giving the bible as backup for Christian ideas is meaningless unless you first backup the validity of the bible in its entirety. Otherwise, I might as well believe everything a Mormon says because of what is said in the book of mormon, or anybody of any other religion with a holy book.
I cannot say I totally agree with everything C.S. Lewis says, but “Mere Christianity” is a book I recently read which sets up his argument for Christianity before ever getting into anything bible related at all.
As far as dinosaurs in the bible go, I don’t see it as a search worth going at. The lack of the presence of the dinosaurs in the bible does not mean they did not exist during that time, but rather that dinosaurs aren’t important to a Christian’s understanding of God. The bible is not a book about biology. The fact that the bible probably does not mention over 20 species of insects does not lead me to understand that according to the bible there could not have been a hundred species of insects alive during that time period.
However, the behemoth in the bible would be the most likely candidate as a dinosaur. There really aren’t any other large animals of that description that would have a tail like a cedar. http://www.answersingenesis.org/images2/behemoth_tail.jpg
I’m also noticing the common myth that there is no substantial proof for Christianity: I would never have chosen to believe Christianity if I was asked to believe without logical proof. Just because nobody’s been able to give you the proof doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Christian Apologetics is a whole branch of theology studying the proof for Christianity and why the heck anyone would believe in it. Not many Christians are studied in apologetics as it is not part of the essential doctrine of Christian belief, so if you really are searching, I would recommend looking for the answers yourself rather than asking Christians for answers, not getting any, and then assuming that the answers do not exist and therefore Christianity goes down the toilet. I was shocked myself when I found that Christianity answered the questions I had.. but if God is real, then… well, he would have the answers.
I write this not to prove that Christianity is right, but in hope that perhaps someday Christianity will be given the logical respect it deserves. For too many it is just a touchy feely religion without basis. It would be nice to have a conversation with an atheist who can say, “I have studied through apologetics, can’t agree, and this is why.” rather than the oh so plentiful ones that say, “There is no logical argument for Christianity, but I am logical and can see that there is logic behind atheism, and therefore Christianity is wrong.”
Sorry, am I going off topic?
I guess what I really want to say is, I think there are just as many Athiest Myths about Christians as there are Christian Myths about Atheism. I have been in both categories.
wow… i liked the article
only problem i found with it:
“Now, dear believer, ask yourself how many atheist books, magazines or essays you have read. Oh, I forgot, they’re all the work of Satan.”
firstly, i am a christian, and obviously… that entire article would be considered an atheist one, correct? sooo… if youre speaking to believers, youre kind of contridicting yourself because theyre reading the article, arent they?
secondly, in response to the second sentence, we do not all believe that logical writings are the works of satan. i personally despise the belief by some of my fellow members of the religion that satan embodies himself in ANY WAY, in ANY source of media or other form of information. that just doesnt happen, the only thing that inspires people to write or create things, is their own opinions, while sometimes they may be evil (not in the religious since but in the sense such that it is morally wrong such as well, in a recent case, the band Slayer with their new cd)
i can absolutely %100 respect your logic and this article, however i only ask that you respect my beliefs, and refrain from stereotypes such as the misunderstanding that all christians hate logic and intelligence, and spurn all sources of media and opinions that differ from their own. while we may disagree with your beliefs, many of us will certainly not dislike you for one disagreeance.
i come from a family that is deeply rooted in christian beliefs, and i must say, that many of the things that members of my family say, are IN FACT ignorant and have no logical basis. however, there are some of us that enjoy intelligent conversasions, and dont believe that just because you have a different opinion that, said opinion is derived from a possession or embodiment of SATAN! ~.~
maybe i should write an article about the myths about christians… they sure seem to exist… we are certainly not ALL unaccepting of other beliefs and cultures
~jimi~
After reading this article, I must say I was both shocked and offended. Shocked that people think these things are commonly believed, and offended at the ignorance and hatefulness of the arguments against Christianity and religion.
I have compiled my responses to every point in the argument so that people can see what most Christians actually believe.
I took the time to read the atheist argument so if you do not take the time to read mine you only display the arrogance, ignorance and closed-mindedness that you deny.
1. I personally do not believe, nor do I know any Christian or theist who believes that all atheists hate Christians. It is true however that some do. (and I realise that you do not deny this). However, I do not thin it is fair to suggest that religion causes people not to think. I think that questioning society’s beliefs and often “gappy” logic and exploring the possibility of a higher, vaster and more complex reality is the most open minded thing a person could do.
2. In fact the bible teaches the opposite. Humans are borne sinners (nobody can deny ever doing anything wrong in their lives), and as such are enemies of God and reject him. I do not think it is fair to suggest that “reason and logic” point towards science which says that all of reality came out of nowhere for no reason having no cause or purpose – denying the almost universally accepted laws of causality.
3. Again I do not personally believe or know any Christian/theist who believes this to be the case. I agree that “human empathy, genuine feelings for others, and, most importantly, rational principles” are indeed valid reasons to be “morally good”. However, I believe that “all good things come from God” and all of these – being good things, don’t come from human nature but from wisdom imparted by God.
4. Yet again I struggle to believe that this is “commonly believed” as I personally do not believe, nor do I know any Christian or theist who thinks this. I take offensive at being called “sheep like” (except in the sense that the Lord is my Sheppard) because Christianity does not follow the way of society or the beliefs that most people hold.
5. Obviously, if atheists knew there was a God then they would not be atheists – simple as that. However I do believe that there is an inherent void in all people from birth. People often try to fill this void with material things, pleasure, experiences, family or companionship but can never truly satisfy it. I do not deny that there are many people who have no belief in God and yet feel content (although I would question that they genuinely have no desire for anything more than what they have). The only people I know who have ever been truly content and satisfied are those who fill the void with the love and grace of God.
6. For the most part I agree with what you say although I do not believe that all Non-Christian information is “the work of Satan.” Unless you live under a rock or in an isolated community, it is impossible to say that you have never encountered, heard or been told about atheist principles and if you truly believe that all Christians are brainwashed and oblivious then you are obviously blind to the world that we live in.
7. I would refer to my argument for point 5. I do not think it is fair to say that anyone is truly self-sufficient. The definition of the term meaning that you need nothing apart from yourself (no food, no water, no companionship, no mental stimulation, no love, no God etc…). Only God is self-sufficient – he is only able to be because he is God.
8. I acknowledged that atheists do indeed love and enjoy life. However, you clearly have a very warped or limited understanding of Christian teaching. The Bible teaches that life is a gift and as such is a precious and wonderful thing. It is to be enjoyed and used for the glory of God (that’s right, we already know the meaning of life!). Christians do not fear death because we know that something better awaits us.
9. This is not commonly believed. What a pointless argument. Christians do not believe that life is suffering (see argument above).
10. I’m sure there are many arrogant atheists just as I am sure there are many arrogant Christians. I do not think that atheism is an arrogant principle, neither is Christianity.
11. Again I personally do not believe, nor do I know any Christian or theist who thinks this way. Teaching Christianity to your children does not stunt their logic. I believe that in many ways, teaching them unproved and flawed scientific theories as fact does cripple their reason. Christians only try to reach out to others because they feel compassion towards them. They know that if you do not accept the Gospel then you will burn in Hell for all eternity and they do not wish to see that happen. I agree that some people go about evangelism in the wrong way but harassment is not the aim. If Christians kept their beliefs to themselves we would be denying our duty to God and to our neighbours. Also, I have yet to be thought Christianity or indeed any theist principles in school or any science lesson.
12. I agree. The beauty of the world is not affected by the understanding of it. Theists do not reject science but I believe that since God created everything, everything is an act of God and all his creation is beautiful.
13. Again I see that you have a poor understanding of Christian teaching. I would refer to my argument point 8. not believing in hell doesn’t make it any less real, it just means it comes as a bigger shock.
14. Did you make this up or do you know large numbers of theists/Christians who believe this? Those surveys were taken in prisons. Many people seek God or religion once they are in prison because they want to repent of the sins for which they are imprisoned. If you looked at the percentages of people’s beliefs when arrested you may find a different result (though I’m not saying you will).
15. I personally do not believe, nor do I know any Christian or theist who believes that all atheists are stubborn and arrogant. There is no denying that some are but this is not necessarily related to the fact that they are atheists. I believe that Christianity, or at least theism is the most logical explanation for the universe and therefore atheists are not necessarily stubborn and arrogant, just not in hand of all the facts.
16. I agree that there are good and bad parents of both theist and atheist families. There is nothing wrong with obeying God rather that doing what you think is right. This would imply that you know better than God and is a sinful attitude. Christians learn from Abraham’s obedience – not the circumstances (which only enhance the level of commitment shown in Abraham.) Abraham did not want to kill his son but e obeyed God anyway. That is the difference between Christians and atheists. We do think that we are the highest life forms in the universe and follow God’s authority, not our own.
Serenaid thus you put your faith in the word of man even if filled by spiritual ascendency and driven by god him self. I’m pointing out that, by this fact alonr, it’s fallible and not to be taken as litteraly as some might mean. The bible is waxxed poetic to an extent and some of it comes out in a strictly humane way
you say it your self:
the human brain will never be able to grasp the splendor of divinity.
I mean that in and of it’s self thus makes man unworthy uncapable and unknowing to write holy doctrine whats to say these people didn’t put their own touches into it?
and also thanks for the honest feedback it’s refreshing not to be sqaushed and flamed because someone doesn’t agree with your views.
Any argument an athiest can muster against christianity can be explained by the theory that god works in mysterious ways, and has a plan for everyone.
Any argument a christian can muster against athiesm can argued against by prove it! or if god created the world who created god?
The fact of the matter is that in the end christianity must believe it on blind faith, and nothing an athiest can say will change that
The other fact of the matter is tat athiesm takes the world on fact and no stories that a christian can tell will change that.
I thought that this artical was very well written. And i have read …..most of the posts….there are alot of them.
, but n harm done.
I do understand that you were not saying that these points apply to all christians, though in some areas you did make a slight tendancy towards doing just that
I am still young, 18, but iv been to churches in both hemispheres and across 4 countries. And in my personal experiences alot of this myths do exist.
And i have no doubt in my athiest mind, that if a christian wrote an opposite artical that alot of those myths would be true in alot of circumstances.
I also have tried hard to see both sides of the story, i have gone through the bible and what not. And alot of the miracles in their are quiet amazing, the obvious problem bring….if they happened…..wheres the proof??? And i understand that in the end its a test of faith to take in what is taught…….but as one can only assume that god is immortal, why is he still not throwing around miracles??
Here’s a question i put forward to any highly religous person, and i may have this story slighty wrong, i may even have the wrong religon and i apologise for that in advance.
When the egyptians where using the jews as slaves moses went forth and told him to let his people go. Followed by plagues and what not and finally the infamous parting of the read sea. So my question is this, if god sent moses forward to save his jewish people, well where was he in world war 2????
miracles do still happen. God does throw “them around” all the time. The problem is not that the proof doesn’t exist, it’s that the proof is not believed. For example, a man falls sick and is near death. I’m talking–stinking really really close to death. This man was once strong, but suddenly every doctor he meets has the same conclusion–he cannot survive this. He will soon die. But no! Instead of dying, he “miraculously recovers from his cancer, and eventually goes on to be just as strong as before. In fact he is so strong that he wins a few more Tour de Frances!! So where’s the proof? It is sucked dry by this man’s boasting, “I beat cancer, I won the tour de france, I now sell bracelets that let you worship me because I am my own god.” obviously Lance armstrong has never said this, but by his attitude it is true. Honestly, what did he do (or could he have done for that matter) in and of himself to cure the cancer?? Nothing. If he could seriously have beaten it by himself, then he will never die. Then other people too would not be sick. No one would die. We would all be self-sufficient, self-sustaining, and self-gods. But people see him as a great man because he has taken the miracle given him and claimed it his own doing.
So the proof exists, the miracles happen, and yet people retain the choice–believe, or suppress the truth for their own gain.
The very fact that you eat food everyday proves the fact that you are not self sufficient and are in need of something greater. Therefore your god is food, or money, or your job that gets you the money to buy the food. So instead of being an athiest, try being a foodist, airist or waterist.
Titan:
Why is He still not throwing around miracles? well.. He is. I’ve met people who were blind who’s sight had been restored through prayer. I’ve also seen men who had been deaf from birth begin to speak. This isn’t those crazy healings sometimes shown on TV, even I can’t take those to be real… This was on the streets of Mongolia. There was a ceremony and the whole town went, only the disabled and sick stayed behind because they were considered “unclean” for the ceremony. This included a friend of mine, a christian, who felt compelled to start sharing about Christ to two deaf men that were left behind with her… Even she felt stupid doing it, but later that day one of the deaf men was running around the town yelling “Jesus healed me! jesus healed me!” and the following day the other man was healed as well.
But I’m assuming even a miracle like that would not be proof to you that God exists. It’s only natural.. people stick to their beliefs.
Yours is a common question, often put into different circumstances. Why does God heal some people and not others? Why does God answer the prayers of some for loved ones to come home safely from wars.. and not others? In the end to answer these questions, you need to first answer the question “why would a good God let bad things happen?” If this doesn’t apply to the answer you’re looking for… oops. reguide me. haha.
Some Christians would say that it’s all part of God’s plan that we can’t understand, but He can see the big picture and he’s forming this beautiful plan out of everything… but.. i quote
“How seriously would we take a person who said, “I have faith in Adolf Hitler, or in John Dillinger. I can’t explain why they did the things they did, but I can’t believe they would have done them with out a good reason.” Yet people try to justify the deaths and tragedies God inflicts on innocent victims with almost these same words. Furthermore, my religious commitment to the supreme value of an individual life makes it hard for me to accept an answer that is not scandalized by an innocent person’s pain, that condones human pain because it supposedly contributes to an overall work of esthetic value. If a human artist or employer made children suffer so that something immensely impressive or valuable could come to pass, we would put him in prison. Why then should we excuse God for causing such undeserved pain, no matter how wonderful the ultimate result may be?…. ”
It’s so easy to blame God for bad things isn’t it? I mean, if He is omnipotent, then.. He could make everything right. Stop every innocent death. Bring peace to every war. Do I believe this? Yup, sure do. Thing is, God gave men free will. We act, and experience the consequences of our actions, and sadly the consequences of others’ actions. God isn’t about to stop all bad things by controlling people’s actions, he doesn’t want us to be robots.
-If a drunk driver kills someone in my family, God did not make the driver drunk.
-If someone in my family is raped, God did not fill the rapist with hate or make him a slave to his passions.
-If I suffer because of someone else’s greed and injustice, God did not fill that person with greed and selfishness.
It’s amazing how people tell God to stay out of their lives (which God honors), and then blame Him for not doing things/stopping bad things from happening in their lives.
God’s got this big picture in His head that we forget to see as well. If as Christianity claims, our lives are eternal, then… Suffering, no matter how large, during these 70-100 years of our lives here… is… nothing. It’s like having your leg broken once in your life at age 10, going through enormous pain for a couple weeks, and then going on with life until the pain you felt doesn’t really matter any more… eternity after this life where suffering can occur will be much much longer than the 80 or so years after breaking a leg. Eternity… infinity… forever.. yea
and then there’s the whole deal with God being like a father, us like the children, God discipline us (spanking). we learn lessons from hardships, yes? I grow the most when I struggle or go through painful times. Also the idea that God is trying to get our attention. It is true that during hardships like 9-11, many many people start crying out to God, and looking towards God for help.
Of course this particular topic could be discussed much further, and I have not put down a response that could come anywhere close to answering all parts of the question that would need to be addressed. Whole books are written to answer just that one question. But I’m gonna stop here.
So why does God choose to act sometimes and not others, especially when it’s the same situations.. i actually.. have to go now. haha. i guess i’ll get back later if nobody else has answered the question satisfactorily.
Titan: “So my question is this, if god sent moses forward to save his jewish people, well where was he in world war 2????”
A christian would say, “They were eventually saved, right?”
Ok, if the Bible isn’t important in identifying dinosaurs or whatever, which is fine, than can someone please explain to me God’s other doings:
1. What was the purpose of 9/11? Did all those innocent people have to die? I’m pretty sure a lot of them were pretty good Christians and yes they will go to heaven, but why so early?
2. If God loves everybody, then how come some people are just made in a way that will cause everybody to hate them? For ex., I would have hated to be a Jew in Germany or a Black in America before the Civil War. What kind of cruel joke is that, to be tortured day and night just because one is different?
3. Elephant man. ’nuff said.
4. Homosexuals and Lesbians. Yes, you can’t get married if you’re one of them and even Christians hate you for being gay. I thought God loved everybody?
You can see where I’m going with this. Too many people suffer for no reason. Someone is going to reply saying, “As long as they keep their faith and pray to God, they’ll go to Heaven.” Ok, say that again when someone cuts off your testes and sprays you with a firehose. Let’s see you try to keep your “faith” when that happens.
I was a math major in college, and therfore most of what I did was based upon proof. We must prove something in order to use or manipulate is in anyway. Without proof, nothing can work. Of course we start with deffinitions. Then we must prove through definitions than 1+0=1. Then we can go on to prove other such equations and systems, but it all must come back to some logical proof. Now because I can prove all those things, I really do not need them. Because I can understand them, I can manipulate them and use them for my understanding and purposes, but in the end, they are nothing more than little tools I use. What I can create, understand, or manipulate I usually do not NEED.
So athiestic arguments draw heavily on the burden of proof–prove a god exists, and I’ll believe, but right now I don’t believe because it hasn’t been proven. You my friends are true mathmaticians (the most fun of the sciences) and therefore I commend you. Yet this I hold against you: If a Christian (and that includes me with my scientific mind) can prove, define, or understand God and then clearly articulate that proof either through word or graphical presentation, then that god is of no value to me or you. If I could explain my God, then I could put him in a box, or on paper, or in some other way contain him. Therefore, in a sense, I could create him. If I create him, who is God, me or him? Therefore I believe in a God who is unprovable by human logic. If I believed that this comment, or any other arguments could “convert” everyone and prove God, then I am really believing in myself and my power of words, argument, or logic.
For example: we built computers, right? Tell a computer to act on its own accord to prove that humans exist and that humans created them. Computers are the smartest, stupidest things on the planet. When you program a computer, does it say back to you, “I see what your trying to do, but wouldn’t your project be more effective if you first consulted your computer professor as some of your ideas are not quite working?” Only in Microsoft Word!! We control what we make, so we spend our time making so many things that make us feel powerful, important and significant. Soon we get the illusion we are self sufficient and don’t need something more powerful. It’s interesting that athiesm is such a new form of belief. Why, because we have built so many things that we control we have forgotten the One who has formed us. Why bother with something greater than ourselves, when we can be content playing with a bunch of meaningless pieces of plastic and metal while we seek to gain small green pieces of paper!!
Forgive me for the sarcasm…..but I just got carried away
Ok I’m an atheist and just wanna clear something up. Christians (or other religios groups) have faith which is believe that is not based on evidence. As an atheist I base my believes on the most probable answer. I don’t think that the existence of God is very probable so I don’t believe that. I am not afraid to say I don’t know. Where did life come from? Where did matter come from? What started it all? Maybe it was an allpowerfull being.. I don’t think it was but I don’t know the answers to these questions and probably never will.
As far as morality goes, I think that is more a product of society than that of religion. I havn’t seen anyone burnt on a cross lately. And as for Christians? I love some of you. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I do however have very little respect for the christian religion, because of things done in the name of christianity. Its like americans, I love em but their government is the shits. Maybe its all the religion?
Titan: “So my question is this, if god sent moses forward to save his jewish people, well where was he in world war 2????”
A christian would say, “They were eventually saved, right?” No. well yes, they’re saved, but that’s not where i’d say God was…
Ok, if the Bible isn’t important in identifying dinosaurs or whatever, which is fine, than can someone please explain to me God’s other doings:
1. What was the purpose of 9/11? Did all those innocent people have to die? I’m pretty sure a lot of them were pretty good Christians and yes they will go to heaven, but why so early? NO, but as Vonya said in an earlier post, we experience the consequences of our own sin and other people’s sin… denoting the terrorists in this case. God did not direct those terrorists to do what they did, human choices had their effects..
2. If God loves everybody, then how come some people are just made in a way that will cause everybody to hate them? For ex., I would have hated to be a Jew in Germany or a Black in America before the Civil War. What kind of cruel joke is that, to be tortured day and night just because one is different?
They aren’t made to be hateable, they are hated because of prejudice… racism.. people’s fear of what is different from themselves. Again it is a human problem, not a God problem.. I have many black and jewish friends, they aren’t hateable to me. They were hated because of bad teachings/outlooks of society, not because there is anything innately hateable about them.
3. Elephant man. ’nuff said.
I have friends that are handicapped, blind, and almost gruesomely disfigured (shriveled, almost skeletal)… Sometimes they wonder what life would’ve been like to be normal, but those who found God also found contentment. They realize that God loves them not for what’s on the outside, but what’s on the inside. They take on the identity as a Child of God, and no matter what anyone else says, it doesn’t matter, because God’s opinion is the one that counts. They realize their sufferings are temporary and they will have a restored body in heaven. They also learn better than to judge their worth by their appearance… There is a hope in these people. I have mutilations of my own.. I’ve had serious diseases of my own… But when I really trust that God knows what He’s doing, I have peace. I know I’m meaningful.. God isn’t around to give everyone bodies that are perfect in man’s eyes. But He gives everything needed for contentment and meaning in life. Sometimes those that lack easy acceptance are better able to appreciate simple things like friendships more.. able to care for those that are not well-liked more.
4. Homosexuals and Lesbians. Yes, you can’t get married if you’re one of them and even Christians hate you for being gay. I thought God loved everybody?
I love my homosexual friends! I cannot stand that preacher that goes around to college campuses with God Hates Gays signs… This is a stereo type of Christians.. Christ hung out with those who were judged as sinners by the religious leaders and not worth associating with during biblical times. They’re loved by God.
You can see where I’m going with this. Too many people suffer for no reason. Someone is going to reply saying, “As long as they keep their faith and pray to God, they’ll go to Heaven.” Ok, say that again when someone cuts off your testes and sprays you with a firehose. Let’s see you try to keep your “faith” when that happens.
I would keep my faith.. I’d be angry at the person for his actions.. not God. Anyways, I’ve had a friend that was brutally attacked outside of her home and robbed and sent to the IC. She prays for her attacker, and continues on loving her God.
Christianity isn’t only about heaven… What would that make this life? just a waiting station? That’s too simplified a view of Christianity.
Mike Said on August 23rd, 2006 at 6:29 am:
[quote]
Xavier:
I believe that what the bible said is to share the word, not force it onto people that have no interest in hearing it. In this message baord, for example, you are sharing the word because there have been a lot of questions about Christianity. Ask to receive, that sort of thing. When, however, you tell people they are going to burn in Hell for their wrong doings and they must repent and read the bible when they are just minding their own business, you are forcing the word. Telling someone on the side of the street that they are living incorrectly when you know nothing about them or their situation is not only wrong, it’s unchristian.
[\quote]
Mike:
I understand. Street preaching can be quite intense. But preaching has always been part of Christianity. To deny them this is to deny their religious freedom. You might as well ask them to stop reading their bibles or stop praying. Jesus preached in the streets, unsolicited, to people he’d never met before, as prophets before him had done, as Christians after him will do.
Also, consider this: John the Baptist was executed because he hit a nerve with Herod. The Pharisees plotted to kill Jesus because he called them a brood of vipers, among other things (when was the last time you were called that on the street?) The Romans, the bad guys of the time as far as the Jews were concerned, wanted to release him. They didn’t see him as a threat. But the Pharisees did, simply because Jesus hit a nerve. My point is this: if street preaching bothers you, ask yourself why. Dig deep and be honest, because chances are, they’re hitting a nerve.
Vonya and Proof:
Kudos on a very well-written reply.
Chim: “They realize their sufferings are temporary and they will have a restored body in heaven.” Why have a restored body? God created them like that because they are unique. They should still be disfigured in heaven! If what you are saying is true, then everybody will look like Angelina Jolie and I will have massive biceps.
Yes, all these actions are by man and not by God but your notion that “We experience the sins of others.” is a pretty lame one. It seems like Christianity’s main purpose in this context is to allow us to accept that we live in a f’ed up world and that it’s ok. That’s totally the wrong attitude. If one is constantly getting discriminated or disrespected, he should do something about it, take some action, not PRAY for those who beat him up.
I am God: In fact, the very opposite is true. Christians are one of the only groups of people who don’t accept the world for what it is and are trying to change it by actively introducing a moral standard, in spite of the fact that they are ridiculed for it. Compare that with an atheist’s attitude of “live and let live”, and then tell me who’s accepting that we live in an “f’ed up world”.
I live in a fundamentalist town called Kokomo, Indiana. If you are not a WASP, you’re fucked. I think I am the only atheist in this town. I have yet to meet any others…
What I can’t stand about Christianity is that Christians are forcing their twisted view of morality down our throats. And now they’re teaching this stupid Intelligent Design crap. They claim that this country was founded by Christians, and therefore, is a Christian nation. Well, I’m not sure exactly what religion (if any) the Founding Fathers followed, but this was not intended to be a “Christian Nation.” This country was founded on the ideal that anyone can believe as they want, say what they want, and pursue their own happiness. Christianity had nothing to do with it. There is a reason for Separation of Church and State. In fact, our Founding Fathers came up with the idea to keep religion out of government. Government and religion do not mix well.
However, Christians are trampling all over the constitution, passing laws that dictate what people can and cannot do, based upon what the bible says. This nation is slowly becoming a theocracy, and I don’t like it.
So, if Christians want to pass laws banning gay marriage based upon something written in a story book (which is what the bible is), then why don’t they stop working on the Sabbath, and wearing clothes of mixed fabrics? Why don’t they outlaw divorce (because, according to the bible, one who gets divorced and remarries is comitting adultery)? Why don’t they stop eating pork and shrimp? There are lots of “laws” in the bible that Christians conveniently ignore, claiming that they don’t apply to modern society. Well, then, by your own admission, neither does the whole “homosexuals are abominable” argument, either.
A message to Christians: Do not claim that you’re oppressed, and that you’re being persecuted for your beliefs. You have absolute control of the government. You’re making the laws. When someone points out that having the Ten Commandments posted in a government building is unconstitutional, don’t claim that you’re being persecuted for your beliefs. Separation of Church and State is a reality. That means religion should stay out of government. Don’t throw a fit because you can’t have your way. Though you can’t post the Ten Commandments in a government building, you have the freedom and the right to worship at home, or at church, or wherever you please. You do not have the right, however, to force your views and your beliefs on anyone else. Get over it.
I do not exist, quit bickering!
Your post regarding ‘Myths About Atheism’ concerns me quite frankly. I’m neither Christian nor Atheist, but I noticed in your blog that in dispelling these myths about atheism, you suceed only in demonizing Christianity. For example, in the last myth, where you talk about Abraham sacrificing his son. You can’t use that to argue that Abraham was a bad father. It was meant to illustrate Abraham’s unshakeable faith in God. Also, you have to remember that the story takes place over 5000 years ago, in a time and place where polytheism was all the people knew, and human sacrifice was quite common in rituals to these gods. Abraham was born into a tribe that had many many gods. So, in conclusion, think before you speak.
“I live in a fundamentalist town called Kokomo, Indiana. If you are not a WASP, you’re fucked.”
Sounds like a town I wouldn’t want to live in either, and I AM a christian. A closed Christian society where all outsiders are just f’ed.. sounds to me like the Pharisees of the bible. You know, the people Jesus rebuked and was dismayed with. The religious leaders of the time, the big shots, the ones everyone looked to as the model for a good “Christian”. Jesus (the real model), is the one who associated with the shunned sinners of the day. Honestly, get OUT of there, haha. Go associate with people of all beliefs and religions, get away from that restrictive WASP community. Meet Christians that aren’t like the ones in your town, I assure you, there are plenty. At the beginning of every year, my Christian fellowship of 100 starts out with only about 50 of the attendees being Christians. Why would 50 non-believers stick around in a place they are judged? Well, cuz they aren’t. Homosexuals, druggies, Buddhists…etc, they’re all welcomed, welcomed in to explore Christianity. They’ll discover what we believe, and decide for themselves… The great evangelists of the bible never forced Christianity down anyone’s throats, they simply explained their beliefs, and called anyone willing to follow, to follow. A Christian following that model, would do the same. So.. sorry there are those that don’t, but humans aren’t perfect at doing anything, right? As mentioned earlier, there’s bad Christians and good Christians, bad atheists and good atheists.
“And now they’re teaching this stupid Intelligent Design crap.”
Yea… there’s a lot of crap in intelligent design, i agree, but why do you think it is so? Is it because it goes against what you believe, and therefore has to be false, crap? That… wouldn’t be a good reason. But if it’s for the sometimes unsolid reasoning presented with it… then, okay. But don’t shoot down Christians for getting around to looking for scientific proofs for their beliefs. Would you rather us stay ignorant and just be okay with everything we hear in church and that be enough? Blind faith, as it’s been called. It would be cruel to accuse us of blind faith, and then slap us for doing something to look at Christianity through logic and science. Intelligent Design is a relatively new idea, you can expect it to have weak spots, unfilled spots. Nobody ever expected evolution to be able to explain everything and stand up to all arguments while it was still in its first stages of formation.
You’re right about the founding fathers, this should not be called a Christian nation, but I don’t agree with the idea that we’re treating it as if it is one. Is it wrong that Christian leaders are voted into political offices? No, I don’t think that’s where the problem you see is. It’s the choices made while in office, right? Let’s take for example, abortion. Christian politicians need to chose whether to agree to abortion or say, “no, abortion should not be allowed”. As Christians, the leaders may see the whole issue as “should murder be allowed or not allowed”, because… that’s what many of us believe abortion to be, murder. I would think it inhumane if someone who believed abortion to be murder said, “yup, go right ahead, kill ‘em all.” These Christian leaders are simply living in this nation and practicing their own right to their own beliefs. Telling them to stop would be like taking freedom of religion away from them, and can you really blame the decision makers for choosing what they believe to be the best for our nation?
“There are lots of “laws” in the bible that Christians conveniently ignore, claiming that they don’t apply to modern society.”
The reasons the Old Testament Laws aren’t applied to Christians of today are not because the laws are no longer applicable to modern society. Neither are the laws ignored. I see the laws, but I also know that the laws (about specific eating, clothes wearing, etc…), are part of the Old Covenant, which Jesus Broke when He died on the cross. Christians no longer live under the old covenant, we live under the new covenant. Ever wonder what was symbolized when the temple curtain tore in two at Jesus’ death? You notice that many Jews still keep the laws regarding what they may or may not eat, well.. makes sense right, they don’t believe in Christ, just the old testament. Do your own research if you’re willing and open minded enough to learn more, but don’t accuse Christians of things that you don’t know.
The fact that the plaque was removed doesn’t make me feel persecuted, but it does tell me that this nation is not heading towards being a theocracy, that the nation is heading towards the constitutional way of everyone having freedom of beliefs.