- Atheists hate Christians and Christianity. No, we don’t. Personally, I do hate the atrocities that have been committed in the name of religion, the dishonesty of most religions, and the way that they encourage people not to think or question, and not to trust or use their minds. But I don’t dislike someone just because of their religion.
- Most atheists started out as Christians, and stopped believing because of some bad experience with other Christians. Or maybe we simply started to question, to wonder what happened when we applied the standards of logic, reason and burden of proof to religion, as we already did to everything in our lives. Or, perhaps, we were never believers at all. It happens, you know.
- Atheists have no sense of morality, since morality comes from God. Ah, the old “without fear of hell, there would be nothing to stop people from being bloodthirsty monsters” argument. It may come as a surprise to most Christians, but there are reasons for being “good” other than fear of punishment - which isn’t really a reason, anyway, and only shows Christians in a very bad light. Reasons like human empathy, genuine feelings for others, and, most importantly, rational principles. Behaving yourself just because daddy will spank you otherwise does not make you a nice child.
- Atheists are a unified group, like a church. Are we? I must have missed the memo, then.
If anything, I’d say atheists are more diverse than Christians, because we’re less “sheep-like”, and don’t accept things on faith, or from authority. - Atheists actually know, deep inside, that there’s a God, as that’s perfectly obvious; they are simply too proud and arrogant to admit the existence of something greater than themselves. Not exactly. You see, the existence of a god is only “obvious” if you’ve been brainwashed (either by others, or by your own irrationality) into believing it. We are truly convinced that there’s no god, and are not in denial. Really. I’m serious.
- Atheists don’t really know anything about Christianity. Again, it depends. Some certainly know more than others. However, religion is so ubiquitous that, like it or not, we’ve all had varying degrees of contact with it, with its teachings, and with believers. Besides, a lot of atheists are naturally curious. I, myself, have read the Christian Bible - more than once, in fact. Now, dear believer, ask yourself how many atheist books, magazines or essays you have read. Oh, I forgot, they’re all the work of Satan.
- Atheists’ lives are cold and empty, as they can’t feel the joy and love that comes only from God. Really? I’d never call my life “cold” or “empty” - I have the joys of friendship, love, family, and doing the things I love to do. And, what’s more, I’m self-sufficient, unlike anyone who says “I don’t know how anyone could live without God in their lives” - as many Christians do.
- Atheists are depressive and nihilistic, since they believe there’s nothing after death, and therefore there’s no point to anything. On the contrary, we, unlike you, know how precious life is, because we’re aware that it’s our only one. And, this may come as a shock to you, but we can love our lives, we can feel the joy of being alive, because we don’t believe that “this is the devil’s world”, or that “this is just a test before the real thing”. Life is precious, and it’s our own - not any god’s.
- Atheists are cold and uncaring. No, we are not. Having delusions doesn’t make anyone more “caring”. And, again, we treat life as precious, and do what we can to improve it, both ours and that of our loved ones. On the other hand, many Christians believe life is suffering, and that there’s nothing we can do about it.
- Atheists are arrogant. What, because we dare to use our minds instead of asking “who are we to know”? No, we’re not.
- Atheists want to forbid religious worship. Wrong. We just don’t want to be harmed by it. Want to believe in God, Jesus, Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy? Be my guest. Want to teach your kids to do the same? I feel sorry for them, but it will still take many years until people realize how crippling one’s reason in childhood is like a bird crippling its offspring’s wings. (*) Want to give all your money to a guy with a Lexus and a bad haircut? Fine. But don’t try to “save” me, don’t harass me in the street or at my home, don’t get politicians to enact laws to give power to you, don’t try to teach your religion in science classes by dishonestly giving it a new name and disguising it as “science”, and don’t use my tax money to write your idiocies in public places. In short, do as you want, as long as you keep it to yourself - just like I don’t go to your place trying to un-convert you.
- Atheists are incapable of feeling awe at simple things, like a beautiful sunset, as they see everything in terms of cold science, instead of miracles. Ah, unweaving the rainbow - the idea that beauty and poetry only exist if we know little to nothing about how things work. But I ask you: does the fact that you know about astronomy, physics and light make the sunset any less beautiful? Was it beautiful only because it seemed “magical” - or “an act of god” - to you?
- Atheists live their lives in constant fear of death. Few people actually want to die - those that do are either depressed and suicidal, or are Christians who believe that the world is evil, “please, Lord Jesus, take me”, and all that. A reasonable fear of death is perfectly natural. Also, we may believe that this life “is it”, which makes us treat it as precious, but, at least, we don’t think that there’s a chance of going to a place where you burn and are tortured for eternity…
- Most criminals are atheists (or, alternatively, the percentage of atheists among criminals is higher than among the general populace). Oddly enough, the opposite is true.
- Atheists are stubborn and closed-minded. Not unless you define “closed-minded” like this. But, as Ebon said, Ask any believer what would convince him he was mistaken and persuade him to leave his religion and become an atheist, and if you get a response, it will almost invariably be, “Nothing - I have faith in my god.” Although such people may well exist, I personally have yet to meet a theist who would acknowledge even the possibility that his belief was in error. Many theists, by their own admission, structure their beliefs so that no evidence could possibly disprove them. Atheists, on the other hand, are easy to convince - all it requires is for God to show himself in some unfakeable way - say, for instance, by doing any of the many things he supposedly did in the Old Testament…
- Atheists make bad parents. Again, there are good and bad atheist parents, and good and bad Christian parents. Atheist parents, however, would never do what Abraham was about to do to his son Isaac (and Christians see Abraham’s behavior as laudable!), because, to most atheists, our lives are our own. In fact, even if there was a God, it would not follow that our lives are his.
Note: There’s already a list, The Top 10 Atheist Myths, by Dave Silverman, but mine isn’t inspired by that one. I agree with what Silverman writes, but I don’t think all of those are necessarily the top myths. Not to say my list is better, but these are what I think are the top myths… and a couple of them are actually in both lists. Besides, my list has more myths than his, which obviously makes it better. 
(*) There used to be something harsher there, where I seemed to (but didn’t) compare teaching religion to children to sexual abuse. I just meant to say that it was crippling, and should be seen as we see parents who refuse their kids medical treatment because they’d rather put their faith in god: bad parents who aren’t capable of being parents. As it was misunderstood, I edited it. Any (pre-edit) comments about it are still below, though.
EDIT: Don’t believe that many Christians actually think some these things about atheists? Please read my new post, Are the myths about atheists real or not?
EDIT 2: Because there are so many comments, and because most of them (including some of my replies) were getting too far from the original subject, I’ve closed the comments for this post, and created a new one: Christian myths about Atheism: discussion. If you want to comment, or reply to this post’s comments, please go there.
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Well, for a list of Myths about Atheists, they seem to be extremely focused on Christianity. I’m not sure if this list doesn’t make the 6th myth of the list more than a myth.
I know that’s just a myth because being an atheist myself, I know much more of religion besides the Christian ones.
Maybe the title of the article should be “16 Common Christian Myths about Atheists”.
It’s the religion I have the most contact with, and by far the most common one in Western countries… it’s natural that it’s their misconceptions that I chose to address. I really don’t know what Buddhists, Taoists or Native Americans believe about atheists - mostly because I personally don’t know any. Maybe in the future…
Oh, and welcome to this blog.
Hey! Where do I join the Athiest church?
This is not a stupid question…really. I wrote “Now, one of the problems we atheists face is that we don’t have anywhere we can meet to discuss our non-beliefs. We have no organization. It’s difficult to talk about a belief you don’t have, so we tend to be left out in the cold.”
So, what about it? Can we open an Athiest congregation where we can go to not worship?
Hey! Where do I join the Athiest church?
This is not a stupid question…really. I wrote “Now, one of the problems we atheists face is that we don’t have anywhere we can meet to discuss our non-beliefs. We have no organization. It’s difficult to talk about a belief you don’t have, so we tend to be left out in the cold.” (http://whiteboysinasia.com/?p=404)
So, what about it? Can we open an Athiest congregation where we can go to not worship?
Sorry about the double post. I hit Submit and then realized I forgot to put the link. I guess I didn’t hit the Stop button quick enough.
Ouch, my eyes hurt! Please consider changing the colours on this site ! I totally agree with you on this article, but i bet many will not come back to the site just because of the colours.
anon: funny, nobody said anything for months, and now there are several comments complaining. I must do something about it, then… though I’d like to avoid the fashionable “web 2.0″ obsession with white and light green. More about it later…
Excellent post, though I have to agree about the colour scheme. There’s an entertaning video of Richard Dawkins expounding about Russell’s Teapot here that you might like to take a look at.
Wow…16 strawmen all lined up and knocked over. You must be exhausted!
I’m not knocking on you Pedro, because it is true that Christians and specially Catholics are the ones who have more misconceptions about the Atheists. Most of the other religions are much more tolerant.
About the colors here, I don’t like that much either, but I like the black background and light grey fonts. The orange is the one that hurts the eyes when we try to read it. Consider changing just the orange to a lighter one.
>> “On the contrary, we, unlike you, know how precious life is,”
Man, you are still biased against those who don’t share your worldview. How pathetic.
funny, nobody said anything for months.
Well, It has been reeditted (reddit.com)!!!
They are atheits and atheits, living with a big group of them I can tell you the same flaws they see in religions socities they start doing the same, the mayority seems to abuse minorities, as a human natural behabiour. I’m not one of them(I believe in god), but not going to the church every sunday in a strong catholic family makes you something like that for your people.
I like the colors, much more than “white in everything, burn your eyes”.
Cheers
Want to teach your kids to do the same? I feel sorry for them, but it will still take many years until parents can legally be held accountable for that, as they are for sexually abusing their kids.
It already happened, in soviet union.
Actually, If you want to see it now, go North Korea, for a west minded point of view is an unique experience in live. As yoy see in http://www.korea-dpr.com/faq.htm
korea in composed mostly by non-religious or atheists.
Nice list. I have been an atheist all my life. I really cant stand it when people say the morality thing. Which they do fairly often.
It’s not that atheists have no morality, since many are clearly moral. Rather, it’s that atheists have a parasitic morality. They absorb the morals of the culture around them. Because an atheist’s morals are in synch with the society around them, everything functions fine. An atheist who grows up in, say, a Muslim culture, will have a very different set of morals, and will in fact, have a hard time understanding an atheist from the West.
Western Civilization has at its moral foundation “Judeo-Christian” (as a Jew I use this term guardedly) moral values. Those values hold human life in very high regard, and place a tremendous amount of attention on respecting each person and their property (don’t murder; don’t steal; don’t commit adultery; even don’t desire what isn’t yours - ie covet). Muslim cultures superficially seem similar, but they most definitely are not.
Ultimately, this “myth” (#3) is a straw man. Atheists, as I said above, can and do act morally. But there is no reason for an atheist to expect others to act similarly. Religions which claim a divine revelation, whether you agree with them or not, can. They claim that the morality they preach has a divine origin, and thus universal applicability.
10. Atheists are arrogant.
Well, I don’t know about atheists, but you definitively are… or at least you sound like one
Not quite, I had a rest since then.
Seriously, the idea of my post is “Christians believe this, this and this, wrongly, about atheists”. From my experience, a lot of them do, so the “myths” exist. Just because you don’t believe in them, yourself, doesn’t mean that a lot of Christians don’t. I really don’t see how this can be a “strawman argument” (and yes, I know what it is. ;))
“Atheists want to forbid religious worship. Wrong. We just don’t want to be harmed by it. Want to believe in God, Jesus, Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy? Be my guest. Want to teach your kids to do the same? I feel sorry for them, but it will still take many years until parents can legally be held accountable for that, as they are for sexually abusing their kids.”
Sexual abuse is illegal and immoral. It could be said it is forbidden. You seem to be making a moral equivalence between teaching one’s religious beliefs to one’s children and sexually abusing them. Based on your wording indicating that parental accountability for the act of teaching religious beliefs to children is a thing that will occur in time, I infer that you are for making religious teaching an illegal and immoral act. And later you state “don’t get politicians to enact laws to give power to you.” It sounds to me like you want the law to agree with your beliefs. And you want me to believe that you do not want to forbid religious worship. I expect better logic than this out of atheists.
Again, there are Christians who believe that life is nothing important, that it’s just a test to see whether you go to heaven or to hell, that the “real thing” is after you leave your body behind. Many of them, in fact, believe that - even the Bible tells you not to get too attached to this world.
Do you deny that? Even if you don’t share that view, you have to admit that many Christians believe it.
Atheists, on the other hand, know that this life is it.
Where’s my bias, then?
I’ve already answered this one in Reddit. I’m not likening it to sexual abuse or anything, just to, say, a bird crippling the wings of its offspring while they’re still in the nest. Birds have wings, humans have reason, so crippling reason is, to me, a crime - at least a moral one. But I admit that writing that may have been too much, as most people see nothing wrong with teaching our kids not to question, and not to trust their minds. Maybe I’ll edit it.
As to politicians enacting laws to give power to Christians, I think the meaning should be clear: no tax breaks, no financial aid. It’s discriminatory, and an abuse of tax money. Here, it doesn’t have anything to do with religion, but with the fact that governments shouldn’t even be allowed to do such things.
The question to ask is whether being an atheist means you “don’t believe in god” or “believe there is no god”…
No doubt a Christian would look at an atheist as an non-believer, where in actual fact they have a belief, it just differs from that of their own
whole-heartedly agree with the article. well-written and informative (at least for the ignorant masses). Spread the word of no-god, so that others may see the real light and strive to understand it scientifically. Science is the only way forward, ignore it at your (and probably our) peril. I dont hate anyone, especially not because of their religion.. I do, however, tend to think more of those who question their surroundings. I have sympathy for those who need the crutch that religion provides, but urge them to seek out the truth.. you need no one but yourself, anyone else (familly, friend, etc.) is just a (fantastically wonderful) bonus. You are an intelligent being, whether you like it or not.. so act like one.
First, I don’t think there are many atheists in Muslim cultures, as I believe it’s punishable by death, according to the Koran. If there are any, they’re probably hiding their lack of belief. I may be wrong here, though.
As to the “parasitic morality”, you are implying that morality comes from God or religion, which I - and any atheists - dont’ agree with. You don’t seem to realize that it’s possible to be moral according to our own rational principles, our feelings for other people, and so on.
As Ayn Rand (quick, run away!) said, “The moral is the chosen, not the forced; the understood, not the obeyed.” I think that it’s much better that I don’t kill someone for their money because I realize it’s wrong, than if I just didn’t do it because I was afraid of going to hell.
Funny, if you’re sure of something extremely unlikely according to observation (the existence of a God), you’re “devout”, but if you’re sure of something extremely likely according to observation (the non-existence of a God), you’re arrogant.
I have to disagree… I HATE RELIGIOUS NUTS!
Religion is the single greatest root of all evil.
The advancement of mankind requires us to leave fairy tales behind.
New color scheme. Like it?
You may have to force a refresh in your browser to see it.
MANY THRUTHS about Atheists:
1. They prefer debating the issues rather than accepting them.
3. They are smarter and tell better jokes!
4. Most atheists are knowledgeable about MANY religions AND cultures and try to be respectful towards each one. (Except me! Exception = Rule proven… the respectful part of course, not the knowledgeable aspect…)
5. Atheists LOVE comic books! (Especially the new Ultimate comics!)
6. Atheists have great tastes in movies… except for a few I know…
7. Atheists in general simply want a functional society that can work together on factually proven ideas to improve the world around us, and not to destroy your beliefs. Accepting that science is our COMMON point of reference for everyone allows us to interact on these levels… EXCEPT for the bloody creationists! With religion now undermining Science is exactly the same as judging our “religion”…
Silly of us atheists to believe that we could all come together and discuss scientifically proven facts together… I mean… really Facts! Jeez, who believes in proven ideas anymore… and why should we ever have consider that people might be reasonable to accept this.
“…moral according to our own rational principles, our feelings…”
Rational principles and feelings are, of course, two contradictory positions to take. Besides the fact that morals founded on feelings are completely dependent on the individual!
Why is something wrong? Because you feel it? What if I feel differently? What if I feel that my own survival trumps all other considerations? Even better, I am an ambitious person who wants to advance my position in society. Why should I control my actions? Why should I consider how my actions affect other people?
You also completely ignore my hypothetical about the possible atheist in a Muslim culture. It doesn’t matter whether they exist or not. However, the existence of secularist Muslim nations (Syria, pre-war Iraq, Egypt, Turkey, pre-revolutionary Iran, etc) certainly shows that it is possible to be a quiet non-believer in Muslim lands.
The instant you believe your personal convictions are applicable to others besides yourself, and that you expect others to abide by them as well, you are saying one of two things:
1. There is a God who transcends humanity and who’s will applies equally to all.
2. My beliefs are superior to all others and thus humanity must abide by them.
Just because you and the atheist down the street happen to abide by the same set of morals doesn’t mean you came to them by the same process, or that you won’t diverge in your morals in the future. It’s just a happy coincidence.
If you accept that you are moral, you must be prepared to define moral. If you define it, you must expect others to accept that definition as well. If you expect that, you aren’t just one moral agent among many, you are the sin qua non of moral agents, the arbiter of morality, in effect a replacement for God.
Saying that it is wrong to murder because it leads to a breakdown in society also doesn’t lead to a universal moral conclusion. What if a murder you want to commit is guaranteed not to lead to any such breakdown (eg a homeless person with no known friends or family)? What if a theft goes undetected? What makes either of those actions wrong?
> Atheists are arrogant
I hope you put that one in there as satire because while your post is well reasoned, the tone of it is seriously arrogant. Perhaps it’s time for some non religious soul searching.
MANY THRUTHS about Atheists:
8. We are not a Unified group… otherwise we would be demonstrating at each political event and trying to keep science in our schools and not religious doGma.
9. We have nicer hair cuts.
10. We do not watch Walker Texas Ranger… (Confession time… I have seen one or two episodes… aarrgghh!)
11. We want FIREFLY back! Please Josh!
12. Most of us are lazy to vote! (Sad but true)
13. We despise being sent Powerpoint files with cute pictures and prayers!
14. We accept responsibility for our actions… (Well most of them at least… okay some of them… maybe)
15. Believe Oprah and Ricky Lake to be Mistresses of evil, along with anyone at CNN, FOX News and BBC, all belong to the same insane voodoo cult.
16.
17. If you think I missed 16… well… 16 is a message from goD… can’t you read it? You are an Atheist!
18. Read the REDDIT post about how many people goD has killed in comparison to Satan… If it’s true then call me a Satanistic Atheist!
19. Atheists do not get Christmas presents, all we get every year is a lump of coal.
20. We do not burn the coal, because we believe that the Green House effect is a real possibility if not a fact. Very kind of us wouldn’t you say?
21. Atheists LOVE dictionaries!
22. We Also LOVE a Thesaurus! (Too lazy too look up the plural of Thesaurus… see point 12)
23. We hate chocolates…. cos we take everything with a grain of salt.
24. Have the same chances as any religious person to win the lottery! (Still trying… aarrgghhh)
25. Verify what we hear and see on the news and newspapers… realising most of it is absolute BS!
26. Like fielding conspiracy theories ideas and conversations without ever having to believe in them.
27. Love the idea of aliens existing… Just so we can get of this nutty planet and away from you!
28. Make great cooks
29. Atheists are better in bed… (Or so I’ve heard… sigh)
30. Did I meantion we want FIREFLY back by any chance?
I really don’t think so, unless it’s the “arrogance” of being sure that millions of theists are wrong.
Is that “arrogant”, as in “who am I to think I know better than millions”? You may put it that way, though I believe that the truth or falsehood of anything does not depend of the number of people who believe (or not) in it. Usual example: at one time, everyone was sure that the Earth was flat, yet it wasn’t, even then.
Arrogant… you had a bad day, didn’t you.
“You don’t seem to realize that it’s possible to be moral according to our own rational principles, our feelings for other people, and so on.”
What are these rational principles? I’d also like to know what “feelings” are. What makes me love?
Why is it wrong to harm someone? What I mean, is how do you come to the conclusion that someone else is “wrong”? That sounds like a moral judgment to me. I accept that atheists can have morals, but what are they founded upon? If I was sitting on a bus and had to get up for a second, turn around and notice someone has taken my seat, how can I justify saying to them “that’s my seat! you were wrong to take it”. Where does this sense of right or wrong come from?
r2 (and, in a way, it also answers Scott): that’s a more complex question, which I’d better leave for another post.
But I’d say that the “moral”, the “good”, is what promotes life - and I mean life as a human being, not just basic survival. Therefore, the “immoral”, the “evil”, is what promotes death - not necessarily physical death, but “life in death”, an existance of suffering and despair.
This is just my opinion, though.
And my own principles are based on that. Not on “divine commandments”, or on a fear of punishment.
Very nice list… and considerably less abrasive than myself. I’m not surprised by the accusations of arrogance. I get such comments fairly often. I even wrote a response– Damned Uppity Atheists.
I dont consider myself an athiest. But i dont belive in religion. I think religion is the worst thing to ever happen to humanity. Its the root of most of humanities wars. In my opinion, religion should be outlawed. Now, i do belive in a greater being than myself, its just something i belive in. But, religion itself is just garbage. What would i classify under?
I like the articulation of your points and recognize that many of them are valid. However, I’d like to address them individually. Responding here is a poor place to do so. I’ll write my “rebuttal” and let you know where to find it. Thanks for your article. It has helped me to see another side of atheism (not agnosticism) and inspired me to try to find a way(s) for you to accept Christianity as being just as valid if not actually the right way.
John
well…i guess it leads to the breakdown in society when a dismoral act is done WIDESPREAD..for example, everyone starts stealing..such that even if it is undetected..the notion of property breaks down and we get a really confusing society
so thats why is wrong to do bad stuff and such..
Looks to me it’s a defensive maneuver; tell everyone what “Atheists” do and do not do. It’s a good generalization, isn’t it? Understandable, however, as atheists tend to receive a fair amount of criticism.
I understand the atheists. They just CAN’T to believe. Sometimes it’s very difficult to believe in God, but for them it’s almost impossible. They don’t know what to do to start to believe, even if they wish to.
“But I’d say that the “moral”, the “good”, is what promotes life - and I mean life as a human being, not just basic survival.”
“This is just my opinion, though.”
Another way of saying that is your philosophy of “good and bad” is your “belief”. What’s the difference between Christian religion and atheist religion? Nothing…save one ascribes belief from God while another ascribes belief from science, nature or something else.
Pedro, you believe that “good” promotes life. But, as you said, that’s your opinion, or belief. Maybe for you, science is your god. You see how life might work best, based upon scientific observation. My point is that non-belief is a belief and that atheism is only different than other religions in that atheism is not organized. However, there are a set of values and doctrines that are adhered to in atheism. Science dictates doctrine. As ej says, “Science is the only way forward, ignore it at your (and probably our) peril.”. That sounds a lot like a doctrine of fear just as much as Pedro would say that other religions promote fear in order to produce belief.
Here’s a few common misconceptions about christians too:
1. Have to be right-wing. Not so, just have to personally believe that Jesus is there and that He’s available to discussion.
2. Have to be anti-abortionist. Not so. Have to love everybody and be willing to sacrifice his own interests when others interests demand it. Have to do what Jesus would do. When in doubt. don’t!
3. Has to belong to a church. Not so. Have to have good relationship with Jesus and should belong to a church, where directed by Him.
4. Has to know what to believe about evolution. Not so. Has to be humble enough to say that I don’t have the capacity/information to evaluate this subject scientifically. Jesus knows.
5. Has to correct others misconceptions. Not so. Has to answer humbly, if others want to know what I believe.
Derek: trust me, we don’t want to believe. Why would we ever want that?
We are no more lonely - or alone - than you are.
r2: there’s no such thing as “atheist religion”. Atheist is a lack of belief. You probably don’t believe in Odin, so you’re an “Odin-atheist”. Now, do you think your non-belief in Odin is a “religion”?
Science is not my “god”, because I don’t need one. You assume that everyone needs a god, or something to believe in faithfully. But some of us like to simply enjoy their lives, and base their beliefs on observation (and no, that’s not “having observation as a god”. :))
Atheism doesn’t have a set of values and doctrines, because there’s isn’t such a thing as “atheism” (or, else, again, you’d belong to the “religion” of Odin-atheists, and to the religion of Cthulhu-atheists, and to many thousands other such “religions”). It’s not a group. You don’t “belong” to atheism. Atheists disagree on a lot of things. We don’t have a set of rules to follow, or anything like that, except our own, individually - I’ve already told you mine.
Is it so hard to imagine life without gods? Must you believe that we all have them, even if they are different?
As I once read, atheism is a religion as much as not collecting stamps is a hobby.
“Atheists are arrogant.”
Point 10 - The reason I see atheists as arrogant (though I would prefer to say presumptive), is based partly upon what Pedro says here: “I feel sorry for them, but it will still take many years until people realize how crippling one’s reason in childhood is like a bird crippling its offspring’s wings.”
Pedro, and many atheists, believe that science is conclusive. That reason and logic is infallible. YET, science, reason and logic has yet to disprove the existence of God. They also can’t logically explain how humans have within them a concept of God. If God did not exist, then why do we have a sense that there is a God? How can someone create or imagine that which previously had no precident? How do we know what “ideal” is? What is perfect? Science has never observed perfect society or harmony, so how is it that we should think to imagine such a thing? Where does our creativity come from? If you say it evolved, to what purpose did it evolve? This is loose logic and loose ideas, ones that “science” cannot prove but can explain, but I only ask to show that people of faith, which I lay claim, can reason. Unlike Pedro’s assumption that religious people cannot, which is arrogant.
“Atheist is a lack of belief.”
But you believe that “good” living is to promote life. This is what I, as a reasoning person, have trouble with. You have a logical contradiction. You’ve observed life and have created a philosophy which fits what you observed. Your philosophy is a belief system, whether you admit it or not. If atheism is truly about not having any beliefs, then there is no basis for you to form “opinions” about life. Observation can only hold true until the next sequence in events.
Pedro, I really trust you when you say that you “don’t want to believe”. The fact is that you don’t. And I understand. But I just think that it’s a pitty that you don’t want that hard.
Sorry, I didn’t say that, and I don’t believe that. What I believe is that logic, reason and science are - by far - the best we’ve got.
Nor have they disproven the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Your point…?
Many of us don’t. Many people also believe they hear voices, or have been abducted by aliens. And Christianity is relatively modern; there were older religions. Who’s to say Zeus or the Mother Goddess aren’t more real than the Judeo-Christian god? After all, people believed in them first. It must have been some “god sense” at work, right?
I could say, then, that you don’t want to believe in Thor or Zeus. Do you? Have you opened your heart to them? No, because you have already found your “truth”, and you see no reason to believe that they exist. You’re certain that the thousands who believed in Thor, with all their hearts, centuries ago were wrong.
Well then, with me it’s the same - only I see as much reason to believe in Jehovah as to believe in Thor.
It’s not like I have to “guard myself” against believing, or against feeling “the touch of God”, or anything like that. I said that I didn’t want to believe - meaning, “I have no interest in believing”, not “I am making an effort not to ever believe” - in retort to your “They don’t know what to do to start to believe, even if they wish to.”.
r2:
I didn’t say I don’t have any beliefs. I simply don’t have any supernatural ones. Atheism is the lack of belief in a god or gods, or anything supernatural like angels or fairies. It’s not about not having any beliefs (about reality, about existence, about the natural world, about morality) at all.
I too felt that some of your points had a sort of arrogance to them…So I felt that I would try, as best as I could, remove as much of what I felt would deem offensive to any party. I did sort of remove alot of personal things that you added in there, and kept everything that you tried to say, I think.
1. Atheists hate Christians and Christianity. Some do. Some don’t. I don’t. Personally, what I do hate are atrocities that people have committed in the name of religion, the dishonesty of people in most religions, and the way that these religious people encourage others not to think or question, and not to trust or use their own minds. But I don’t dislike a person just because of their religion.
2. Most atheists started out as Christians, and stopped believing because of some bad experience with other Christians. Or maybe we simply started to question, to wonder what happened when we applied the standards of logic, reason and burden of proof to religion, as we already did to everything in our lives. Or, perhaps, we were never believers at all.
3. Atheists have no sense of morality, since morality comes from God. There are reasons for being “good” other than fear of punishment. Reasons like human empathy, genuine feelings for others, and, most importantly, rational principles.
4. Atheists are a unified group, like a church. I’d say atheists are more diverse than Christians, and don’t accept things on faith, or from authority.
5. Atheists actually know, deep inside, that there’s a God, as that’s perfectly obvious; they are simply too proud and arrogant to admit the existence of something greater than themselves. Not exactly. We are truly convinced that there’s no god, and are not in denial.
6. Atheists don’t really know anything about Christianity. Again, it depends. Some certainly know more than others. However, religion is so ubiquitous that, like it or not, we’ve all had varying degrees of contact with it, with its teachings, and with believers. Besides, a lot of atheists are naturally curious. I, myself, have read the Christian Bible - more than once, in fact. Now, dear believer, ask yourself how many atheist books, magazines or essays you have read.
7. Atheists’ lives are cold and empty, as they can’t feel the joy and love that comes only from God. I’d never call my life “cold” or “empty” - I have the joys of friendship, love, family, and doing the things I love to do. And, what’s more, I’m self-sufficient, unlike anyone who says “I don’t know how anyone could live without God in their lives” - as many Christians do.
8. Atheists are depressive and nihilistic, since they believe there’s nothing after death, and therefore there’s no point to anything. On the contrary, we know how precious life is, because we’re aware that it’s our only one. We can love our lives, we can feel the joy of being alive, because we don’t believe that life is precious, and it’s our own - not any god’s.
9. Atheists are cold and uncaring. No, we are not. Having delusions doesn’t make anyone more “caring”. And, again, we treat life as precious, and do what we can to improve it, both ours and that of our loved ones. On the other hand, many Christians believe life is suffering, and that there’s nothing we can do about it.
10. Atheists are arrogant. What, because we dare ask “who are we to know”? No, we’re not.
11. Atheists want to forbid religious worship. Wrong. We just don’t want to be harmed by it. Want to believe in God, Jesus? Be my guest. Want to teach your kids to do the same? Don’t try to teach your religion in science classes”, and don’t use my tax money to write your beliefs in public places. In short, do as you want, as long as you keep it to yourself.
12. Atheists are incapable of feeling awe at simple things, like a beautiful sunset, as they see everything in terms of cold science, instead of miracles. Ah, unweaving the rainbow - the idea that beauty and poetry only exist if we know little to nothing about how things work. But I ask you: does the fact that you know about astronomy, physics and light make the sunset any less beautiful? Was it beautiful only because it seemed “magical” - or “an act of god” - to you?
13. Atheists live their lives in constant fear of death. Few people actually want to die. A reasonable fear of death is perfectly natural. Also, we may believe that this life “is it”, which makes us treat it as precious.
14. Most criminals are atheists (or, alternatively, the percentage of atheists among criminals is higher than among the general populace). Oddly enough, the opposite is true.
15. Atheists are stubborn and closed-minded. Not unless you define “closed-minded” like this. But, as Ebon said, Ask any believer what would convince him he was mistaken and persuade him to leave his religion and become an atheist, and if you get a response, it will almost invariably be, “Nothing - I have faith in my god.” Although such people may well exist, I personally have yet to meet a theist who would acknowledge even the possibility that his belief was in error. Many theists, by their own admission, structure their beliefs so that no evidence could possibly disprove them. Atheists, on the other hand, are easy to convince - all it requires is for God to show himself in some unfakeable way - say, for instance, by doing any of the many things he did in the Old Testament.
16. Atheists make bad parents. Again, there are good and bad atheist parents, and good and bad Christian parents. Atheist parents, however, would never do what Abraham was about to do to his son Isaac, because, to most atheists, our lives are our own. In fact, even if there was a God, it would not follow that our lives are his.
I think you’d have a better chance at trying to prove your points at people without resorting to ridicule of their beliefs. Unless you were writing down the common myths of atheists strictly for atheists.
Philosophical question. Do the majority of atheist ‘know’ there isnt a God or do they rather ‘know’ there isn’t any proof of such? Some recent theist scientist on NPR’s Science Friday suggested atheists are arrogant because they presume to ‘know’ there isn’t a God. I disagree, I believe atheists don’t take non-existence as de facto but rather, know there is no proof of a God. It’s a nuanced difference I know but an important one.
Is it irony that an athiest’s blog is called “Way of the Mind”? How the mind works is one of the biggest questions that scientists have been unable to answer thus far.
As a Christian, I have a lot of problems with the way many Christians act, and I am never surprised to hear athiests, agnostics, or other religions complain. There are too many “Christians” that profess to believe in the tenants of Christianity, only to lead self-absorbed lives devoid of any actions to back up their claims.
Even worse, there are too many “Christians” who haven’t even read their Bibles, and there are too many pastors who don’t teach the Bible in context. Without the proper context, it’s far to easy to misinterpret the teachings of God.
I used to live my life on my terms and hated church, but when I was actually taught from the Bible properly, I was left with no questions about the existence of God.
I can remember when I was 12. Missionaries always come up to you and MAKE you recite a paragraph or two with them. It’s always “I open my heart to Jesus and worship him whole-heartily” and then “Please Jesus come clean my heart….blah…blah…blah”. I actually recite them a couple of time when I was younger but as I got older, I began to ignore them, which went unsuccessfully, and questions their method of converting people to their religion.
Once I even ask them to COME TO MY RELIGION and you know what their response is “I’m sorry but I cannot do that as my faith is with God and the son of God.” WHAT ABOUT ME THEN? I F*CKING HAVE MY OWN BELIEVES SO DON’T SHOVE THAT SH!T DOWN MY THROAT THEN. That’s my two cent.
Robert, you have a point there. And thanks for the “nice” version.
I don’t think I’ll change much more of what I’ve written, except to correct any typos or mistakes I find. In a way, although I did’t write this “in anger”, I do feel a little resentment for the fact that these myths about atheists actually exist - it just shows that Christians blindly believe what they are told about atheists by their ministers or priests, without ever wondering if it might be a good idea to find out for themselves - and for the things I read in many believers’ blogs, and in the general news. The fact that the US in the world has a Christian president, a Christian congress, a Christian senate, a huge majority of Christians, and still Christians say that they are “persecuted”, for instance, is beyond belief.
And, yes, I do believe religion - any religion - is harmful to mankind, both for the atrocities and for the intellectual crippling it causes, and the fact that fundamentalism actually appears to be rising is both irritating… and scary.
Greg:
So, what about the part that tells you to kill homosexuals? Or to stone to death anyone who works on a Saturday? Are you ignoring those? If so, aren’t you arrogantly implying that you know better than God?
hehe, pedro, you’re article + responses to feedback are bad ass–err, sensational! Vote 4 Pedro
I’m a believer and find this list of athiest myths stupid (sorry).
Chistians may have faith but even we have athiests in our families and know they are just as valid, lovable and “human” as everyone else. Athiest are not evil, though they may be sinful like the rest of us. But then again, what is sin if you don’t believe, there is no accounting of it if you don’t believe in an after-life.
Everybody knows an athiest and everyone knows that they take in the broad spectrum in society. Some are intelligent, persuasive, hungry for knowledge and some are not. Why these 16 myths are even published is questionable, unless it is meant to vilify believers. This list is unnecessary. In fact it reads more like an insult to those of faith
Re: the first myth: many atrocities have been committed in the name of Christianity but the greatest tragedy of the 20th Century, the holocaust, was a product of a rationalist mind-set gone insane (i.e. purifying the race). You don’t have to believe in God to make the world miserable. And, afterall, science in all it’s greatness gave us the nuclear bomb.
I have been decidedly athiest since I attended a church service with a friend at the age of 12. How a 12 year old can realize the absurdity of God and not the rest of the world is beyond me, but people spend too much time bitching about it on internet blogs and never do anything about it. STOP being too lazy to vote and next time, keep some religious douche like Bush out of power. The fact that I even know Jerry Falwell’s name pisses me off - how are these people getting famous??
Also…i bet that most people in America that are supposedly religious have their own doubts…but 1.) its convenient to just blend in, and 2.) who wants to admit to their friends and family that they have been living a lifetime of lies?
STOP forcing your beliefs on your children and give them a chance to discover their own reality.
Holy cucumber
I had quite a few laughs reading this, and the really funny thing is, it’s true! I had the pleasure to know quite well a few people from “the bible belt”. They definitely should have a look at this. Haven’t spent much time on West or East Coast but the Christian fundamentalism that is present in the bible belt is definitely something that is worth worrying. I was Roman Catholic, went to church several times a week, was an altar boy, blah blah blah and then, many years after that I went to Rome for a visit. Have you been at the Vatican? Did you see that golden kingdom? They should sell all that and give it away to the ones who need it. But no, it’s all about power. Plus, in Austria, being Roman Catholic, you’re obliged to pay church tax (up to 10% of the annual income!). Then if you learn about all the historical atrocities you’ve had enough. And please, nobody can tell me that the other Christian churches are “not so bad”. I just wouldn’t believe you. Cheers!
to anyone interested, this is a popular video further highlighting the absurdity of religion. it is concise and informative. John Krimpelbein: please watch it twice.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=116152867541418146&q=Sam+Harris
Atheism is a lack of belief. That means that you accept the fact that the world is mutable, that it has the capacity for change and therefore what you ‘believe’ one day can be proven to be false the next. That includes science, which is really just another belief system. For example, at the moment, from what I have observed, apples fall downwards. Tomorrow that may not be true, but for now, to avoid crippling myself with inaction, I have to assume that this will continue to be the case.
I recognise that this is itself could be seen as paradox - I need to believe something, otherwise I cannot act with certainty - but at the end of the day, this comes down to semantics. A belief is immutable, an opinion is not. My brain makes thoughts that cannot be rationalised except by my own brain. A bit like someone telling you something and you asking why and them saying ‘because I say so’. Does that make it true? No. It depends how much I trust that person as to the degree of ‘faith’ I have in their opinion.
I’m not arrogant enough to think I’m always right, so that means that my brain is fallible and I should always question the information I get from it and make a best guess. That’s all we can ever do.
As far as I know.
One of my favorite myths to debunk about athiests is that we do not believe in life after death. I am an athiest, and I do believe in life after death, just not my own life. Once I die, I am gone. But others live on. The fact that others live on gives great meaning to life, because it means what I do during my life has an affect beyond my own life.
Christians, by contrast, are all about helping me, myself, and I get into heaven. To attain this goal they may do some good during their life as well, and that is one of the nice things about Christianity. But their selflessness is in reality motivated by selfishness. To me, helping others because it feels good is a much nicer reason than helping others because of threat from some god.
‘To me, helping others because it feels good is a much nicer reason than helping others because of threat from some god.’
You are helping other for your own pleasure that in its self is a selfish act. Intrinsically we are all selfish because we are driven by are senses.
To be truly unselfish must surely mean to go against the grain of are very instincts. I.e. to die for the better of others.
Spoken like a true mystic!
With such a philosophy of life, it’s natural that you’ll think me arrogant when I say that apples will fall downward tomorrow, because of gravity. After all, how can I know? Do I have a time machine? Just because the universe I live in has, from my observation, always been a natural one, it doesn’t mean it can’t change at any minute! Who are we to know, anyway? The human mind is fallible, after all - true knowledge can only come from God…
Pesky atheists, always believing they can ever be certain of things. And, even worse, thinking and reaching conclusions by themselves! The sheer, sheer arrogance!
God the Original Fascist. http://rwor.org/a/series/god-original-fascist-all.htm
Yaweh is scary.
Just one point I’d like to address… Religion and reason don’t necessarily have to be mutually exclusive. Honestly, I’m not a big fan of fanatical unthinking Christians myself. Politically, I agree that no-one should have beliefs that are not theirs shoved down their throats. Everyone has a right to their belief or unbelief. Scientifically, I don’t see anything that asserts that the two have to be mutually exclusive. I believe in evolution, but I also believe that God guided that evolution. I believe in science, but I also believe that there are things that go beyond science. I believe that the teachings of Jesus can do amazing things for you in your daily life, and that following them can make you a better, happier, more balanced person. Treat everyone with love, uplift each other, forgive, forget, judge yourself, not others, stand up for what’s right… Maybe we can even agree on that point… So, I just happen to believe that the things he says about there being something greater than ourselves out there loving us and watching us are true, too, and you don’t. Science cannot prove or disprove this. So, faith steps in. I have faith that it’s true, you don’t. And, well, that’s okay. Just please have the respect to recognize that the term “reasoning Christian” isn’t an oxymoron.
P.S. And yes, I go to church regularly.
It is telling to differentiate, say, Roman Catholics and Christians. What is with all those demoninations? Can they not just all agree and believe?
Mea culpa. They all believe in the (perfect) word of The Bible.
Which Bible? King James Version, Revised Standard Version, New American Standard Bible, The Jerusalem Bible, New English Bible, Living Bible, Good News Bible, Gideon Bible, New International Version, New King James Version, Reader’s Digest Bible, et al.
Quick what is 2 + 2? 49? No, its 3.14159? No, it is 8.9E+10? No, f(x)=az? No, i^2=-1? etc etc.
Religion is there for those whom need it.
Heh. I liked this article a lot. Of course there were a few snyde remarks, but on the whole I think it was pretty funny and serves as a reminder to us all that placing people into categories is a lame attempt to understand those that are “different” or have few interactions with. I think someone should create a “Common Myths about Christians” thread, because we have a lot of messed up myths floating around about us (I use “us” loosely here
as well. Nice work. Funny and humane.
Um..
Firstoff, I am an atheist..
Now, your post, it seems somewhat hateful of Christians.. and only Christians.
Why is that?
Also:
14. Most criminals are atheist’s statement
The “opposite being true” does not qualify as “Oddly enough”, you know that and that was a really bad way to answer that one.
Overall, this “list” sounds like it came FROM an atheist and not a gaggle of Christians.
I have many religious friends (most) and they are from different religions.. None badger me, none say anything like the questions and statement here.
They do not think I will rot in hell, they don’t treat ma any differently and I don’t tell them they are wasting their Sundays away.
I think the biggest problem with us (atheists) is that we come off as knowing something the other do not. Do we? I think so, but there is a difference in thinking so and putting it in someone else’s face.
You want more respect? Treat others with respect no matter how absurd you THINK their beliefs are.
What good a post, hello to my fellow atheists and religious believers who don’t go around blowing innocent people up for sake of their beliefs etc!.
I have never wanted to follow a religion because I see all the shit around the world that so called religious ‘loving’ people undertake in order to follow their religion.
‘They don’t believe in our religion-lets take their land an kill them’.
The whole world powers are all fucking bent, I’m not just having ago at extremists I mean Bush stating that he needs to stamp out terrorists - hey so lets pump 6 billion a year to israel for chemical weapon research. what a fuckin joke-was it originally their land ‘No’ so fuck off instead of bombing lebanon.
If god, allah and whoever else you believe in is so good why don’t they do something about whats happening in the world.
Oh no I doubt the great lord - I hope the clouds don’t open up and strike me with bolts of lightning or that a women with a baby doesn’t blow up next to me.
Resurrections, re-incarnations maybe when science has found a way but lets be real its bollocks.
Fair play to the peoples concerned with writing the bible and other scripts-I bet they never thought they’d have followers 100’s of years later blowing up the world in their name. They’d be laughing their socks off - or maybe they are in their world above watching down on us!!!
Seems pretty dodgy things to say about Christians, doesn’t sound like your in touch with what any Christians actually think. Also, consider socialism/communism and their atheistic beliefs and perhaps turn that into a question or two. Be a bit more mindful.
These myths are a western view. I grew up in India which has more religions than the rest of the world put together ! Buddhism is agnostic and “Jainism” is agnostic - and both these are bonafide religions !
The problem at heart is that the majority of christians who ‘have faith in their god’ have only blind-faith. They are not taught to question their own doctrine, not taught to think critically… I’d even say think for themselves when concerning doctrine.
Note that I’m not saying ALL christians as I know a small few who are not in blind-faith, but instead who’s belief is founded on logic, reason, and ethic. A christian who followed their doctrine blindly, their faith can be shattered - as it’s brittle. Unless of coarse, they are as stubborn as atheists are accused of being.
my thoughts.
Hi - I left a post earlier and re-reading it I think I need to clarify a few things.
I may sound harsh to people who do believe in religions and I may have come across abrupt and arrogant and be percieved as a non-believer in anything spiritual.
Well no true, I do read about such topics as meditation but to question my own experiences and views not by seeking help by a higher being.
If people want to better themselves by going to church/mosques/sinagogues etc, then by all means do so I have no problem with that. But don’t try to convert people to also do so and if they don’t please don’t discrimate because they don’t follow your views.
Okay- If I thought there was a chance that we could go into a new life or be resurrected I think we’d all like that, after all nobody wants to die (or whom I know off anyway).
But quite frankly it isn’t possible and its insane, and I feel deeply that writing with such quotes that makes promises to its readers who follow it - well, get real!.
If there were clear signs of a higher being via physical experience then, maybe then; I’ll believe.
But I don’t know anyone who has had such an experience on both a religous and non-religous level.
You want to be a better person, go to the gym, buy a self help book. Don’t follow a religion and then move to a country such as England and then protest about supporters flying the English flag, or that the school celebrating christmas offends your childs religion. What bollocks.
If I visit a foreign country I respect their views - I don’t complain that they are against my views. I’m in their country I respect them, they’re in our country they should also.
Honestly, with this, “where did the conception of god even come from?” question, I think that the answer is that some government in power, at the time, didn’t know how to keep their country and peoples in line, so they wrote these commandment’s and this god, and a heaven and a hell, to scare the people into being proper. My second opinion on this question is that it could just be a story, a story written and blown completely out of proportion. And I agree, I am sick of religious groups forcing their beliefs on other peoples, whether it be the mormons, christians, or any other religions. I grew up Jewish, and i lost my faith in religion as a child. I thought it to be impossible. The ressurection of Jesus, well, that thingy (i don’t know what it’s called) that was wraped around his body and has the picture of him from when he was resurected. look at it like this, Da Vinci could have made that, the chemicals, and knowledge were available to him, Salt and some other basic chemicals available at the time were available and the linen cloth could have been soaked in atht, then put in a dark room with a tiny hole, With a manican outside, and then after a few days of a manican standing outside the hole, would have put the image of the person on the cloth, and with a dab of paint for blood, would be an exact replica, all that would have to be done is to rip off a tiny corner of it, carbon date it, and there, that would prove it, or disprove it. But of course the church would never allow it, for if they did they could loose their foothold in world power. Now, I’m not going to try and tell you, “Do what I want, because I’m right” But im telling you what I believe, because as me being an athiest, im sick of being judged, and put down simply because of my lack of belief, I think that the government is to religious, and that needs to change because it is going against everything that this country was founded upon. Now these are only my opinions, and I believe them, but you dont have to.
Hmm. How would you distinguish between a belief and a personal conviction you can’t hope to prove? I can prove to you that my late wife and I were married at a particular time and place and that she died on a particular date. I can’t in the same way prove that I loved her very much or that I grieved her death very greatly, though both propositions are certainly true and both my love and my grief are very real, at least to me.
Or, to use a slightly different example, I can prove to you that Venice is a city in Italy on the Adriatic. However, while I can prove to you that many people consider it a very beautiful city, I can’t prove to you that it is; you might go there and conclude that it’s a hideous place, and I doubt there’s much either of us could say to change the other’s mind.
I doubt you’d dismiss people’s accounts of their emotions or their aesthetic responses as so much irrational nonsense, despite the fact they can’t be proved. I’m not, mind you, asking you to share my feelings towards my wife, or to like or dislike Venice, but nor am I asking you to believe in God. I’m just asking you to accept that ‘it can’t be proved rationally’ isn’t much of a reason for dismissing something as unreal, in many of the word, or, indeed, as irrational (I assume you wouldn’t say it’s necessarily irrational, in the perjorative sense, to love someone or find a place beautiful or ugly).
You know I read this and can help but to think that it is an unfair arguement.
You see Christians are an easy target because there are so many. However, as a Christian myself, I would have to say that I too don’t like how Christians treat others as lesser beings because they aren’t christians. It’s ignorant and petty and totally defies the teachings of Jesus.
It’s why I don’t go to church. I don’t like the control factor. I am an intellegent human being that happens to believe in God and I don’t think that it is anymore wrong than someone being an athiest. I believe that even if you don’t believe in God that you can still make it to heaven. It states it in Revelations as such. Christians don’t often teach that because it would empty the pews and that disgusts me.
Now, yes, horrible things have been done in the name of Christianity, I won’t deny that. However you shouldn’t judge a religion based on the actions of thier followers because as I’ve stated before, the ideals of Christianity may have bended as such to serve the purposes of man and not God. Thus, it is irresponsible to blame a religion for the actions of the misguided. Some “Christians” just believe they are Christian and are totally not Christian and are in for a suprise.
There are stupid people everywhere but the equation of IF some stupid people are christians THEN all christians are stupid is completly irresponsible and shallow. I have seen people claim that they are “Atheists” practice witchcraft which is clearly a religion. So I could easily and just as irresponsibly say that IF some atheists practice witchcraft THEN all athiests are misguided and idiotic.
The bottom line is that this whole article is flawed because you should look at an individual instead of putting people in a box with a label. It is and always will be the wrong way to approach anything.
In response to :Tahko Tetsujin
Hi I very much respect that you are a christian and believe in god, you are obviously intelligent and have an insight to respect the individuality that is unique amongst all of us.
Maybe instead of focussing on religion I should label on a generic level, ‘organisations’, inc governments etc as well as religions.
My main point is most ‘organisations’ are based on trying to keep folk in order and civilised-however take a look at our world and it is far from civilised.
SteveG: the difference is that neither love nor beautiful cities are supernatural. And I, too, have loved (and do love), and have seen cities I found beautiful.
It doesn’t take any leap of faith to believe you when you say you loved your wife or found Venice beautiful. If, however, you told me you could fly like Superman, I wouldn’t believe you, unless you proved it to me. The existence of a God is more like the second example than the first - I’ve never seen either happening -, so…
it’s nice to see you’ve already made some changes to the colors, but let me say to you Pedro, that I liked the black background better. When I look to grey backgrounded pages, I stay waiting that the CSS File loads.
Really? Jesus Christ.
I must say, I have to agree with Tahko, SteveG, et al.
This list is shameful bullying of the weak. Yes, there are “Christians” who act in the manner stated. But here’s the kicker, Pedro: They’re not true Christians. They’re robots, and they are controlled. I’ll agree on that part.
As a person who has taken more than a couple post-secondary classes on the topic of Christianity in both theological and historical contexts, I would encourage any athiest to academically challenge the existence of God, or the influence of Jesus. The full magnitude of the message of Jesus is largely lost in today’s culture, but it was truly revolutionary, much like the athiest’s message today. It was fueled by ideas of anarchy and anti-establishment, but it led to Love. I find one of the greatest questions regarding Christianity to be surrounding Jesus, not his followers. How did a man who never travelled more than 50 miles from his birthplace (I travel more than 50 miles in a day quite often) become the most influential person the world has ever seen? Maybe it has to do with TRUTH. Christianity is NOT truth. Jesus is truth.
I would challenge anyone to point out any teaching of Jesus (not the people who taught after him) that can be considered absurd or upsetting. Jesus taught love, nothing more. Even the act of dying on the cross is misunderstood by most christians (in my opinion). I’m sure many of us have been approached by people telling us all we have to do is “believe he died on the cross and you’ll go to heaven”. Bullsh*t. You have to understand WHY he died on the cross before that makes any sense. Jesus died on the cross to show an example of the ultimate sacrifice. He died for all of mankind, when he had options otherwise. He showed the perfect love, which ended his life, and through that action he showed that we don’t have to be alone in this world. We can be together through him, and what he taught.
One more myth that Christians like to perpetuate: Hell. Hell never came to exist until nearly a full century after Jesus lived. Gotta love the catholic church. Jesus spoke of a “hell-like” place once, calling it “Shaol”. In jewish tradition, this is a holding place, where the soul lies in complete isolation. This is what Jesus likened to Hell. Eternal isolation. He taught this to show the other side of the coin, if you rejected a life of love and fellowship. For myself, eternal isolation sounds a whole lot worse than burning sulphur.
Anyways, just a few thoughts. I just don’t like how this list perpetuates the hate. Bring the love, baby! we’ll all be better off…. (and you’ll be closer to a real christian than you ever thought you would…)
Atheists are a unified group, like a church.
Well, we were, but there was only one meeting, and it was very brief.
Pedro, I don’t think that reply quite works. You seem to be saying that you find it easy enough to that someone loves his wife or finds a city beautiful — and I assume that you’d accept both these statements from him even though you personally might find both his wife and the city utterly obnoxious — because the experiences of loving someone or finding a city beautiful are ones you happen to have shared. You don’t happen to share the experience many people have of believing in God. Well, whether or not you happen to have shared a particular experience isn’t much of a basis for accepting its validity for other people I’m not asking you to share it yourself; I’m just questioning whether you’re justified in being so dismissive of it.
Your analogy of claiming to be able to fly like Superman isn’t a valid one, I think. That’s a claim about something in the physical world, like ‘this woman is my wife’, which someone can verify by producing her passport and the wedding certificate. He can’t — and you wouldn’t ask him to — verify the statement ‘and I love her very much’ in the same way, even though the love is a real and important factor in his life and is probably far more important that the fact they’re married.
I really don’t think that most people, religious or not, think like that. (THAT meaning the 16)
A lot probably, but personally, I wouldn’t bet on MOST.
I think SteveG was trying to equate God to Love.
Nobody can prove someone’s feeling of love for something to another.
They can’t disprove it either.
Same with God. Unprovable, doesn’t mean not real.
Everything on that list IS a rediculous preconception (IMO) and nobody
should have to defend themselves for being atheist, that’s why this post rocks.
I see some people pointing out that it seemed a bit anti Christian,
but I think if it seemed, say, anti Muslim or Judaism the point may
be overlooked because of sensitivity.
Of course most people understand the horrible things that have been done,
are being done, and will probably be done in the name of religion but hating it won’t take it away.
Talking about it brings thoughts to the surface, for other people to concider,
and perhaps grow from.
That’s another reason why this post rocks.
All in all I like the fact that a post about preconceptions turned into such a colorful conversation.
Arters says tou areanice guy but
I am enjoying the conversation you’ve started, have already bookmarked it to check back periodically.
I also enjoy your post and find that you have many valid remarks. May I make a small point:
Unless time in infinite - which who knows, it may be - there has to have been a point in which things began. Socraties called the event/object that began all things the ‘first mover’
This does not mean GOD ie. But unless you know what that first mover was/is, you cannot as a scientist, as a philosopher, as an actively thinking individual say that it couldn’t have been GOD.
This doesn’t mean become a follower of something that may or may-not exist, it means that a mind seeking truth cannot obliterate an idea simply because there is no proof against it.
A mind following truth will pursue such questions untill he or she dies.
I’d take the word “Christian” out of your arugment and replace it with something that implies Christian/Jew/Muslim. I have the athiest vs. Islam debate regularly…IMO he’s more brainwashed and refuses to acknowledge science more than anyone I know.
This article proves point 1. This guy hates christians and christianity because the whole thing is based on blasting the christian faith; christians could make up all the same points abouth atheists. this guy doesnt even begin to notice that there is more than 1 religion, there are thousands.
Hi,
I think that your list seems fairly good, although as people have said, I think that the idea you have of christ and christ-followers is a bit of a stereotype that is certainly not true of all christians.
I’d also like to discuss your response to Point 3.
“Ah, the old “without fear of hell, there would be nothing to stop people from being bloodthirsty monsters” argument.” seems like a bit of a straw man to me.
Isn’t the real question of Point 3 trying to answer the question “How do we know what Right is?”, with the christian answer being that Right is decided by doing what God wants. That’s what I understand from the spin in Point 3 anyway.
Hehe, this is *classic*. You’ve written a list of myths about atheists which reveals (all over the place: see questions 1,2,3,5,10,11,12… I stopped counting) that you, yourself, have fallen into what I consider to be the number one myth atheists have about religious folk: that faith is necessarily toxic to rationality. I suggest that you turn your own incisive mind to examine your own presupposition that people of faith (even Christians) must all be less rational than atheists. Did you just ignore, or are you simply unaware of, the rich heritage of the highest intellectual achievement among people who belief in God?
I totally agree with your opinions. I am an atheist and I am somewhat offended that certain religious people seem to think this life is some rehersal for something better.
- Steven
Who we are and what we are is not determined by science,religion,or abstract ideologies.
Now i know i’m a true atheist. religion comes from way back when most people had no form of education and knew no better, a time when are ancestors did’nt know anything about science and the way nature worked. example- they see lightning and hear thunder they have no way of understanding it so inevitably they think it’s something greater than themselves. Basic example but you catch my drift.
Pedro Said:
So, what about the part that tells you to kill homosexuals? Or to stone to death anyone who works on a Saturday? Are you ignoring those? If so, aren’t you arrogantly implying that you know better than God?
Wow, and you claim to have read the Bible? Multiple times? Try reading it in contextYou’re working pretty hard to prove #10 and #15 are not myths.
on atheist morals.
look, just because you know killing a homeless guy with no friends or family wouldn’t get you in trouble doesn’t mean you feel free to do it. I’ve always based my morals more or less on “the golden rule”
Treat others the way you want to be treated
(ie don’t kill a homeless guy unless you want to be killed, in which case you’re suicidal and already have problems)
Based off empathy, it’s the idea that if you’re kind and respectful to others, then you will encourage them to be kind and respectful to you. of course you still run into the occasional asshole who just likes being an ass, but that shouldn’t stop you from at least trying to treat them as a normal person. I don’t need a fear of god to make me moral, just the understanding that if we really did all treat others how we want to be treated, the world would be a better place.(and yes I’m quite aware this will never happen)
and.. just for my piece of mind, a response to a particular unaddressed argument that caught my attention
steve:
“To be truly unselfish must surely mean to go against the grain of are very instincts. I.e. to die for the better of others.”
alright well going by your logic, I could want to die for the better of others just so i could be perceived by others as unselfish. but then I’m only doing it for my reputation! how selfish of me!
I’d say the only “truly” unselfish thing you can do is something that’s good for others but against your will. anything you willingly do for others is something you chose to do because at some level you wanted to do it for yourself (whether it be because it would make you feel better or a gun was pointed at you) and therefore selfishly.
my point being it’s not so bad to be selfish (it’s not so bad to want to live is it?) as long as it doesn’t harm others.
how embarassing..
*peace of mind
It’s funny how you prove your first myth is true by constantly picking on Christianity in all of your myths. All of the atheists I’ve met in my life are ex-Christians. If someone told me God had a son and there are 3 gods and “just have faith just because” I would reject that too. The problem is instead of rejecting Christianity they rejected God entirely. I’m not saying all atheists are ex-Christians but the majority is for sure. “And they say: There is nothing but our life in this world; we live and die and nothing destroys us but time, and they have no knowledge of that; they only conjecture.” (Quran 45:24)
You know the soul? The thing behind your eyes? The emotions you feel? Who created that? Where was that before you were a sperm?
“Has there not been over Man a long period of Time, when he was nothing - not even mentioned? Verily We created Man from a drop of mingled sperm, in order to try him: So We gave him the gifts of Hearing and Sight. We showed him the Way: whether he be grateful or ungrateful.” (Quran 76 1:3)
As an Atheist, i’ve never encountered any such myths or assumptions about my beliefs, or lack there of. So it comes as a surprise to me to read this and take into account that there are people out there who actually believe this horse crap. These ‘myths’ can be considered as propoganda to keep people in the dark and remain good wholesome Christians. After-all, what better way to discourage thought and logical reasoning than claiming that everyone who dwelved down that path ends up miserable and shallow? Meanwhile it’s usually the opposite, i’m very happy with my life and pity those who still blindly follow the words of child molestor priests and politicians claiming to do gods bidding while robbing the public blind and causing wars to further their own agenda.
On “There would be no morales without Christianity.”. This is the most illogical bull i’ve ever heard. Sadly I hear it too often. There was civilization long before Christianity, and there will be long after it reverts back to a myth and humanity moves on. To claim there were no laws before your petty religion came into play is like claiming there was no existence before you were born.
I am not an athiest to begin with but i am not religious and do not beleive in religion either due to many horrible crimes comitted in the name of the church and other close minded beleifs. I do think many athiests respond only to how religious ppl view god and not in any other way. I for example do not see god as a person or thing, he/she or w/e is a universal mind that is everywhere with no shape or form and cannot be seen because he/she is not material. Because of this universal intellegance the big bang happened due to its magnificant purpose and from then on evolution happened to where we are now. Some ppl say that there cannot be a god bcuz there is too much evil in the world, well if u really look at it, it is us that cause all theese hardships and we are still evolving until one day there will be no more evil among us is my beleif. Well i truely accept athiests and do not have a problem living around any and god does not hate u like religion says, u have not been given any reason for u to beleive in god, soon u will see though maybe in the next life. Some ppl have personal expirience that lead them to god but in ur case(athiest ppl) that has not happened obviously therefor u have no reason to beleive and its perfectly normal..you got to also think about the mysteries that modern science hasnt been able to explain, how can some ppl see something they have never seen before in the past or future? read on edgar cayce its hard to beleive but even skeptics are boggled on his predictions
sry for writting so much i just enjoy the topic =)
All religions are lies, myths, and stories. Every single one of them. How can anyone have respect for people who believe such primitive stories? We don’t respect insanity, do we? Talking to invisible people who never answer back? Accepting as fact and truth that which has not ever been nor will ever be proven? Sounds like insanity to me. I guess when a bunch of people with the same flavor of insanity get together and form a group, it’s called religion. I’m supposed to respect you for believing in an invisible man? That’s funny.
I found myself nodding “yes” a lot while reading the list. Having grown up in the Bible Belt I have had nearly every one of those arguments before. But I’m older now and less militant and more of a mindset to try to quit changing others as long as they’re not trying to change me. I think the main problem is extremism. Once someone completely buys into dogma (any dogma, including the dogma of Atheism) then life becomes much harder because you spend so much time and energy defending your beliefs.
At one time I considered myself an Atheist, but it never really fit because I don’t KNOW there isn’t a god… I can’t rule out the possibility that there might be a higher power, but frankly, he/she/it (if he/she/it exists) just doesn’t influence my daily life. One day I thought, “I don’t really care anymore about whether there is a god… its not relevant… I’m an Apatheist!” a word that I believed I had coined until I did a web search and found I wasn’t the first to have that thought. (Victor, you asked what your position makes you… maybe you’re an Apatheist too… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apatheism).
Frankly, I don’t really need the mental support that theism offers. I find it to be unconstructive to depend on some external force to direct my life. If something good happens to me, it’s either luck or because I got off my butt and made it happen. If something bad happens to me, it’s either luck, because I made a bad decision, or I didn’t do something I was supposed to do. In all cases other than fate it hinges on me and my actions. My life is my responsibility, and I have to accept the consequences of my actions or decisions, good or bad.
And that’s where the “morals” question comes in. Look, we all live in our own “reality tunnel”. We all have different experiences and influences collected throughout our life that cause us to act or not act in certain ways. We have different aversions and priorities because of that. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not reality is, well, in a word, relative. No two people can experience it in exactly the same way. Ultimately we all choose for ourselves what guidelines we’re going to live by based on our life’s influences. It doesn’t really matter if the rules are “backed up” by a supernatural being who may exact retribution for noncompliance or not. Maybe your life rules come from the Christian Bible, the Quran, Buddist texts, Hindu scripture or other religious sources. Mine can too and some do, but I follow them because they seem like sound advice, because I’ve thought through what life would be like if me and everyone else DIDN’T follow them, and decided, for myself, that they are the right course of action. I am at liberty to adopt my rules from many different sources and that those sources have varying degrees of external authority, but adopting them is still MY decision. And its YOURS too. Once we’ve adopted those rules, they are under our personal authority and no more external validation is needed. That’s a heavy responsibility: I think many people are frightened by it and that’s why they desperately need to believe that the authority comes from somewhere outside themselves and so find solace in theism.
If you realize that your life is up to you, that you (and only you) have the power to change it and that the rules you live by are your own (and so challenge their validity occasionally), then the world would be a much better place. We need to concentrate on improving ourselves and from that improving life for others will naturally follow.
One of my favorite quotes from _The Buddhist Bible_, page 3, speaking of Gautama Sakamuni the “original” Buddha:
“He distinctly tells us that every one must bear the burden of his own sins, that every man must be the fabricator of his own salvation, that not even a God can do for man what self-help in the form of self-conquest and self-emancipation can accomplish.”
It doesn’t mean that god does or doesn’t exist, but that we need to quit worrying about it and get on to the business of improving ourselves and humanity. Too much time, energy and lives are being wasted on the arguments. Let’s agree to disagree and start focusing on what’s important.
“As to politicians enacting laws to give power to Christians, I think the meaning should be clear: no tax breaks, no financial aid. It’s discriminatory, and an abuse of tax money. Here, it doesn’t have anything to do with religion, but with the fact that governments shouldn’t even be allowed to do such things. ”
You’ve hit the nail on the head on this one.
Politicians being politicians needs to ‘buy’ votes….
I’ve not done research on this, but I believe that USA has a very high (>50%) population of christians (including its denominations).
If the politician’s want to target the people not living in cities, they reckon that this people will go to church more often for their social life.
So kind of makes sense for the politicians to do this to get votes…….
Even if others get disadvantaged by this laws, the two big politcal parties know that this is something you cannot go against.
Leave the colors, they’re good.
right on brothe!!
some of thses thing are somewhat true
Dangit, you changed them.
On all religious topics — In my opinion, the best comment is that made by famous entertainer Dave Allen: “I’m an atheist, thank God.”
On the topic of atheist congregation or church — In Rex Weyler’s book “Greenpeace” it is stated that Greenpeace was started by (a whole lot of) atheists with a couple of Quakers. They also invented a church (the name escapes me) in which each member (regardless of sex) was also an ordained priest, and the process of ordaining someone was as simple as a touch of finger to the forehead and a couple of words. It was also the age of Vietnam war, so ordained priests from USA didn’t have to participate in that war. The concept of atheistic church is therefore quite old and practical.
On the topic of myths — Robert A. Heinlein, one of the great writers of the 20th century, effectively triggered a creation of a religion — When he was fed up with fellow writer’s stupidity he told him that he is so stupid that he couldn’t make anything, even such a simple thing as starting a new religion. That stupid person turned out to be L. Ron Hubbard who succeeded in creating “Dianetics” and church of “Scientology”. Some may argue that church of “Scientology” is not a proper church and that other churches are proper ones because they have existed for centuries, but even those established religions have had their beginnings, and who is to say that the next great religion is not some strange idea like “Scientology”?
This is what religion does to you.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Oz7suwW4HiM
Re #3: “I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law.” - Aristotle
Most of your theories are regarding the stereotypical Christian, which in most cases are no better than the stereotypical atheist. There are way too many nuances and this type of discussion goes too deep to comprehendingly put it all up in one blog. It’s fine to believe in no God. What’s funny is that Christianity is one of the only religions that will possibly let you in heaven despite not believing in their God. Most other religions will tell you you’re already going to hell. I think that’s pretty cool for the Christians.
As for tax breaks and such for Christians, I have two points. 1) we are a democracy (more of a republic really.. but that’s a whole different issue), and as a democracy, basically the majority rules, and if most of Americans want something more Christianly in their society, that’s how democracy works. 2) it sucks because it completely goes against the division of church and state. One of the main reasons that the United States came into being was so that each and every individual could practice their religion, any religion, freely and without prejudice or persecution. I agree that no laws should promote or demote any religion, or non-religion.
I believe in God. I believe in science. Science is a human way of perceiving the world. Just because we can’t prove God doesn’t make him any less there, however. Christians don’t necessarily “know” either, but they -believe-. I don’t know that he is there, but I believe he is.
My father is a Christian minister. My morality does not come from a fear of hell and nor was it instilled into me like that from birth. In fact, my morality comes a lot from your “atheist morality”; the belief in humanity, sympathy, empathy, and all such things. No, morality does not necessarily have to come from God, but for some people, morality came to them through God.
The fact, and i use that loosely, remains that human beings as of now are thoroughly incapable of truly understanding this world or whether or not there is a God. As for your observation proposition that your morality comes from your ability to reason… I can reason, I’ve thought plenty on this question of the universe, of God, of not God. I’ve believed, and I’ve doubted. In the end, I came to the conclusion that I still do believe in God. While I may have been spoon fed Christian propaganda, I’ve questioned all of it. I don’t believe in a lot of it, but I still believe in God. When I raise my children, I will tell them about God, and I will give them reasons why they should believe in him. BUT, I will also tell them to come to their own conclusions, to let them reason on their own. You forcing your children (if you have, or were to have them) to -not- believe in God, is just as crippling as those forcing children to believe in Him. In a way, you forcing your beliefs is crippling their own ability to reason; which, reasoning is something you laud.
Most of these “myths”, while true, are from right-wing, closed-minded, propagandists such as Jerry Falwell. People in general are usually incapable of having a full-fledged intellectual conversation, especially those who have not thought deeply upon their beliefs. So instead of setting up arguments against arguments from the intellectually weak, try seeking out someone who isn’t. Your statements alone show an ignorance to what the real religious folk know and think.
Einstein believed in God.
it never ceases to amaze me, people debating the existenece or non existence of a supreme being called the god concept. In my lifetime (im sixty seven years old) this has always been a waste of intelectual effort. No matter what arguments are proposed from either side it always ends up the logicality of the infantile mind. The amount of charlatans in life espousing a religious concept that pop up in every religion year on year should be more than enough proof to give the thing a wide berth and find something more constructive to do in your life. Accept the fact that there never will be a wordwide acceptance either from the atheist nor the agnostic nor whichever religion you wish to propose an acceptable concences for all. The human condition being as it is at present makes such an ideal imposible my simple concept is I dont care what your belief is whith regard to your religion but if you have a god concept then you have a morality that is acceptable to the majority of the human race and if its good enough for them its good enough for me
Interesting site. I live in Greece where almost 98% of the population is christian orthodox (probably less as time goes by) and religion is strongly connected to our culture and life. Each person ’s religion was written in their id cards until a few years ago (sad but true). My parents are both atheists but never told me anything about it. When I was 17 (now 30) I told them I am almost sure I don’t believe in God and that’s when I found out about them. My younger sister believes in God and of course thats fine. I myself believe that religion is just something to ease the pain, and from that point of view anything that provides comfort for people we have to respect (even though I personally cant understand that). The problem is that because religion is so strong here, people like me are considered (not openly but it is strongly implied) to be a bit of a problem I guess. I ve felt left out in many occasions because of my beliefs, and now I dont open up and discuss the issue as much as I would like. Also I hate the fact that women are considered to be inferior in many religions. But I am happy to say that I see things changing (slowly but changing) in Greek society.
Greetings to all.
PL:
Which Christianity? Certainly not the one which says that the Bible is the divinely inspired word of God. The New Testament specifically says that nobody is saved except through Jesus Christ. And it doesn’t mention any exceptions for, say, somebody born in a deserted island, whose parents die before teaching the child any religion (or are simply atheists).
Face it: according to the Bible, most people are going to hell. The only ones who don’t are those who accept Jesus as their savior. No exceptions.
Of course, that’s pretty fundamentalist, and most Christians are “moderate”. But that’s another story.
No, he didn’t - at least in the Jewish / Christian / Muslim sense. Many Christians mistakenly believe he did, because of his “God does not play dice” quote, but he also said “I believe in Spinoza’s God, Who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God Who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind.” (source). He called it a “cosmic religious sense”, or naturalistic pantheism, that is, “the universe, and everything, is God”. That’s quite different from a typical Christian’s view of a personal god, who concerns himself with morality, cares about humans and their belief, and sends some to heaven and some to hell.
Here is my take on the topic of myths about atheists: http://atheistrevolution.blogspot.com/2006/01/truth-about-atheists-correcting.html
This was posted in January 2006.
vjack: nice one. We seem to have most of them in common.
(and, yes, I read the other 4 parts as well)
And, just for fun, here’s another list I’ve just discovered, by searching for “atheists” in Google News: Common Misconceptions About Atheists and Atheism. It’s from August 10, only five days before mine. Just five myths there, and, again, I have independently arrived at most of them here (the first one is suspicious, though - he seems to be saying that atheism is, in fact, agnosticism, which I don’t agree with).
A newer, related post: Are the myths about atheists real or not? Enjoy.
“Atheists, on the other hand, are easy to convince - all it requires is for God to show himself in some unfakeable way - say, for instance, by doing any of the many things he supposedly did in the Old Testament…”
Sorry. God already tried that. He took on the form of man in the person of Jesus Christ, lived on earth for 33 years, performed countless miracles, died, was resurrected and ascended to heaven, all in front of thousands of witnesses. Still, most were not convinced and remain so today.
When you’re ready to believe, see how simple it is at: http://www.sbc.net/knowjesus/default.asp
i guess the only religion in the world is christianity, or maybe that’s the only one you like to attack.
Not getting what you want, but believing you did anyway. That’s the true magic of faith.
Athiest, Buddhist, Catholic, Dervish or Embu,
Frisian, Gaoshan, Hopi, Islam, Jew,
Khasi, Lebu, Montauk, Naga, Ovimbundu,
Pantheist, Quaker, Raelian, Shinto or Tembu,
Ungwe, Vodoun, Wiccan, Xango, Yao and Zulu,
If you haven’t sent your thirty bucks,
You can all just go get f*cked,
That goes for you and you and you…
Prabob!
http://www.subgenius.com
Dude your a little miss informed, first most christians are not christians at all, and yes there are bad christians but they are the minority, most of the worlds food and medical aid is funded by CHRISTIANS!. And one more thing you say people should have open minds, but then you say religion should not be taught in schools, when there is no ( except for inter-species evolution) solid proof of evolution so why do we teach “guesses” in school. Having a open mind and exploring all posibilities is part of the christian religion, it was taught by Jesus, which is all the more to offer ALL different religious and scientific ideas in school. Oh and by the way, Christians are not called to push our religion on everone just tell everyone about it, so they may have a OPEN mind to explore the option if they choose. Which to the true Christian is one of the greatest gifts of GOD is Choice.
If Atheists spent a little less time marginalizing all beliefs but their own and trying to convince everyone around them how smart they are and how superior their thoughts and outlook on life is. Maybe just maybe the rest of the world might start taking them seriously.
Chuck: evolution is a scientific theory. Observation agrees with it. If it’s ever replaced, it’ll be by another scientific theory.
Creationism, or “intelligent design”, isn’t a scientific theory. It’s not testable, it’s not based on facts, and it assumes something supernatural, when we live in a - from all appearances - fully natural universe.
Scientific theories may be proved wrong, when reality differs from them. What about Creationism? The facts already oppose a lot of it (e.g. fossils), but fundamentalist Christians see no problem with that - if reality and the Bible differ, then it’s reality that is wrong.
Why do people still believe in the God of the Gaps - that is, I don’t know how something works or could have appeared, so “God must have done it”? We used to believe thunder and lightning were the anger of the gods; now we know they’re natural phenomena. So many things were considered “acts of God” ages ago, and have been shown not to be, so people - some people, at least, including most scientists - have learned to say “I don’t know yet” instead of automatically saying “I don’t see how that could be, so it’s surely an act of God”, only to be proved wrong some time after.
But I think I’m wasting my fingertips here - anyone who says evolution is “guesses” has probably made up his mind long ago, and won’t let any pesky facts interfere. Am I wrong? Can you tell me one thing that would convince you that there is no god?
You know this is what happenes when you try to hold a serious discussion and actually try to make sense to some people.
It is clearly obvious that both sides of this argument via comments have no respect or the open mind required to have a discussion that bridges the gap.
Basically, anyone who openly blasts an argument that they “believe” is wrong without proof is irresponsible and has no merit in this conversation.
You know, as a Christian, it is entirely normal to question your faith. It doesn’t make you a bad Christian, it makes you human. The argument of Athiests typically are, if you cannot see God then he does not exist. Thusly the argument against that would be, You cannot see oxygen, yet you need it to live, however if you cannot see it it cannot possibly exist.
Then the argument goes to morality. When are people going to understand that morality is an individual desicion based upon your enviroment. To say openly admit that our society is based on Christian ethos and yet say that your moral structure did not develop from it is just plain ignorant. You can be in denial about that all you want. Morality is is a relevant term. If you went to another country, you would discover differant moral structures that if you stuck around long enough you would adapt into your moral structure.
That being said, could it not be argued that even though there are tragic mistakes made in the past in the name of God, that you have adopted things that are right and wrong based on the society you were raised in.
Really the comment that pissed me off was this irresponsible peice of trash:
“Pedro Said:
So, what about the part that tells you to kill homosexuals? Or to stone to death anyone who works on a Saturday? Are you ignoring those? If so, aren’t you arrogantly implying that you know better than God?
”
You know there is a differance between being an athiest based on ideals and being one based on bad experience. The latter typically happens when a person is unable to make a difference between a person’s individual actions and that of thier faith.
That being said, if you read the Bible, it does in fact state that when Jesus came, it created new laws based on love and not punishment. Yes, it’s true that alot of Christians don’t respect that or an individuals free will but the same could be said for the statement.
You know these arguments are never truly about what people say they are about. It’s about stupid people. Stupid people can be any race or religion. Stupid people are everywhere and no one group is immune. If you could seperate the stupid people from the ideals then you’d have something but to say you are an athiest so you must be stupid or you are a christian so you are stupid, is not only in effect showing your lack of intellegence but cannot allow any merit to your argument.
Seriously, who cares what a person believes in as long as they aren’t a fucking bonehead.
[quote]Which Christianity? Certainly not the one which says that the Bible is the divinely inspired word of God. The New Testament specifically says that nobody is saved except through Jesus Christ. And it doesn’t mention any exceptions for, say, somebody born in a deserted island, whose parents die before teaching the child any religion (or are simply atheists).
Face it: according to the Bible, most people are going to hell. The only ones who don’t are those who accept Jesus as their savior. No exceptions.
Of course, that’s pretty fundamentalist, and most Christians are “moderate”. But that’s another story.[/quote]
Pedro, you’re not listening!
The New testment does say that the only way to go to heaven is through Christ, but that does not mean believing in the dogmatic bullshit behind modern day Christianity. It has to do with living your life with Christ’s teachings in mind, more specifically, loving others and living to spread love rather than hate. Being unselfish, helping others, and finding worth in every soul is the path to happiness, and this is exactly what Jesus taught. It is this that denotes the way into heaven, not praying with some douchebag youth pastor who asks for your wallet two minutes later.
Here’s a little history lesson (with some theology mixed in for the “bible isnt history” folks): According to the Bible, the first covenent was made between the Jewish nation and God, making them his chosen people and allowing them to prosper when they adhered to his “rules” of sorts (the 10 commandments). When Jesus came along, he destroyed that covenent and established a new covenent, available to any who seek it. This covenent taught to move away from selfish ambition and move towards unity and relationships with those around you, regardless of caste or culture. Back in those days, the social laws and regulations were very strict. Being seen even talking to someone of low repute was extremely damaging to ones reputation, and this was one of the first things that made Jesus catch peoples eye. He was brilliant in the academic sense (debating with Temple leaders as a small child), yet rather than accepting a place into high society, he would rather talk to the people; rich, poor, or criminal. He taught messages of anarchy and anti-establishment messages. Worldly possessions were not important, but your soul was. This is a bit of the message of true Christianity.
Also, as mentioned by a poster above, Hell is a creation of the Roman Catholic Church. Never mentioned in the Bible, aside from Revelations (which is CHALK FULL of imagery and is not to be taken literally… and if you do…. wow.) Hell was created to control and manipulate people, when really the definition of Hell, in its factual form, is coinciding with the Athiestic point of view: When you die, your body turns to dust, and it is over. period. The question that is more pertinent is this: If we have a soul, and “heaven” (whatever it is) isnt available, what happens to it? Jesus implied that it would exist in isolation, which therefore *could* be considered ‘Hell’.
Unfortunately, you seem to take the Bible as literally and as out-of-context as the blowhards you slam in your list. If athiests are so much smarter than believing-folk, then how come they can’t do thier homework on the historical side of religious happenings? I can make broad, sweeping generalizations about things I don’t understand as well, but I know better.
I only have one comment. This is not meant to be a mean comment, just a fact. This country was founded on religious beliefs and our laws were written as such. From that moment on, this is a religious country, “One Nation Under God.” We who believe in God will continue to fight for our beliefs to be heard in our country. If you do not like it, then go somewhere else. Then you can spend your tax dollars somewhere else as well. Otherwise, live with it and stop trying to change our way of life.
Pedro says:
Why do people still believe in the God of the Gaps - that is, I don’t know how something works or could have appeared, so “God must have done it”? We used to believe thunder and lightning were the anger of the gods; now we know they’re natural phenomena. So many things were considered “acts of God” ages ago, and have been shown not to be, so people - some people, at least, including most scientists - have learned to say “I don’t know yet” instead of automatically saying “I don’t see how that could be, so it’s surely an act of God”, only to be proved wrong some time after.
But I think I’m wasting my fingertips here - anyone who says evolution is “guesses” has probably made up his mind long ago, and won’t let any pesky facts interfere. Am I wrong? Can you tell me one thing that would convince you that there is no god?
Jackrabbit responds:
The answer lies in what you think God represents. If you think he’s an old guy, in white robes, who stands over the world watching it and making changes here and there, then you’re retarded. God, in my opinion, is a being who transcends physical and mental boundaries, instead lying in the spiritual realm. I do not deny Evolution, I do not promote the fundamental view of Creationism. Its a moot point, and it does not matter. The creation story is a mythical story, but again, if you did your research, you would also see that in the original documents, it is stated that “one day relative to God could be thousands relative to us”. Seven days doesn’t mean Seven days as we know it, but a set amount of time in which the world developed. Hmmm maybe, if these days were, say, 100 million years in OUR terms, then maybe the creation story, combined with Evolution, would make sense? Maybe. Maybe not. Who cares. Its a stupid argument cause science doesn’t defeat God. Science cannot explain why we love or hate. Science cannot explain why music can make us cry, or explain our reliance on the psychological state of the Brain. Science is a part of understanding life.
Jim Says:
“I only have one comment. This is not meant to be a mean comment, just a fact. This country was founded on religious beliefs and our laws were written as such. From that moment on, this is a religious country, “One Nation Under God.” We who believe in God will continue to fight for our beliefs to be heard in our country. If you do not like it, then go somewhere else. Then you can spend your tax dollars somewhere else as well. Otherwise, live with it and stop trying to change our way of life. ”
Jim, you are a fucking bonehead that cannot respect others way of life. You are a blight on real Christians.
Have some respect for people who have a differant view. To say if they don’t like it they can move would lead me to believe that you are biggoted and have no respect for others nor are you open to any other opinions on the subject.
Again it makes your argument have no merit and does nothing but give ammunition to the people on the other side of the arguement that is just as stupid as you are.
I agree with what you say in the most part. Christians are judgemental and uninformed about other religions and beliefs. I am a christian sort-of. The reason for the sort-of is because being a christian isn’t what it used to be, people have become judging of other christians as well as the other beliefs in this world. They don’t just judge atheists or muslims, hindus or other said belief, they gossip and talk bad about the people in their own church. These things they are told not to do in the bible. I’m not expecting any atheist to belive what goes on inside the walls of church and I don’t think they nessesarily don’t, but it’s completely crooked for the most part. Which is why I’m sort of a christian. I don’t like churches and what they have become. I don’t like most christians but I do love God and Jesus. Jesus would have never judged an atheist and told him how wrong he believed they are/were, He would simply acknowledge them and listen and answer. They are not the wrong ones, their followers are corrupt and wrong. Christian means to be “christ-like” which based on your definition of Christ is no one on earth christ like. Most atheists I know are kind and loving people who deserve all the same respect anyone else in this world is. I think religion is the one question on earth without a guaranteed answer. It’s all opinion and that’s your right as a human.
Atheist don’t believe in God? Then why do they work so hard to try to prove God doesn’t exist? P-L-E-A-S-E!
I believe in the one true Penguin. The protection of his feathers and beneficial guidance is a wonderful blessing to humanity and the world in which we reside. I shall squawk a blessing for all non-believers. Come to know The Penguin and you will be redeemed.
Gruntie
While the original article was informative and largely fair, I do feel that it is often self-contradictory, arrogant, and uses minor straw man assertions. I am an agnostic. I think that the article would’ve done much better to challenge religion with question whilst debunking the myths rather than make some blanket assertions (about thiests, Christians in particular, and athiests themselves).
By the way, Einstein did not believe in God, not in the ordinary sense. He most likely held a belief in pantheism, which is, roughly, the idea that the complexity of the universe and its workings are so incomprehensible and beautiful that it could be called miraculous and have a sense of the divine. This could be called “God,” but not God the Creator nor God whom we should worship nor God from whom we must take orders on how to live our lives. It’s a lot like athiesm but with a much more positive (vs. neutral) outlook. Thus, technically speaking, Einstein was athiest.
I agree with you Fred. It obviously worries them terribly.
The problem with some Christians, and some from any other faith for that matter, is the lack of questioning. Everything is neatly seperated into categories of right and wrong. Black and white. And while this may be an admirable trait to some degree, it soon becomes apparent that the whole blind devotion act can be easily manipulated and twisted by those who would deem themselves leaders of their respective religions.
So the problem isn’t religion. In my opinion, Christianity, Islam, and Judaism provide a great moral foundation in a world that is very confusing and more than a bit scary. It feels good to have a God looking after you. And the three aforementioned religions promote peace, unity, and understanding more than anything.
The problem stems from us. Human beings manipulating their fellow man into becoming so fanatical as they would kill in the name of some abstract idea or purpose. It’s the common man who no longer questions his own actions that causes the bloodshed we see so often today.
I think it’s wrong to blame religion for problems. Just as it’s wrong to hunt down and slaughter those of a certain race or belief system. Athiests who blame this fanaticism on religion are just as unquestioning as the zealots they blame and are guilty of the same crime of unquestioning loyalty.
Every time we place all the blame on a group we merely serve to continue the tradition of seperating ourselves from the whole. Alienating what we deem as wrong or incorrect so we paint ourselves as the ‘good guy’ and label everything else as ‘wrong’.
But… that’s just my two cents on it.
Whether there is a God is really not the question in this debate. Christianity and many other religions share a common belief in a higher power that chose to place humanity on earth. The name of this deity changes from one religion to another. From studying multiple religions, you can see the intent of writing down ‘the word of [fill in the blank]‘ was to give its people something to follow (rules, guidelines, inspiration, aspiration, etc.) Because it was the holy ones who were hastened to write these doctrines, you can expect that a higher morality was added to the list of rules.
You will note how many words in the Christian bible. (I’m sure someone has taken the time to count the total number of words.) Then consider how many of those words include a negative reference to homosexuality. How important this topic was it to the writers of the word of God can be judged by how few references there are to gay men and women. What has been drawn out of context by the vocalist of Christians are a few words in a book riddled with rules that no Christian on this planet could or would follow in their entirety. When you read the entire book of Leviticus, you can see that the list of rules clearly refer to a different century and time. If I can find just one Christian sect that follows the ENTIRE book (to the letter) of Leviticus, I will start to rethink my views on religion and homosexuality. But until then, they should just STFU.
As far as having a belief in a higher power, that is purely a personal decision. If you have the time and place in your life for it, such a belief can be a comfort. However, if you do not have a place in your heart for such a belief, then the Christian thing to do is allow you the freedom to be who you are. No other option is given to us.
The biggest mistake that early explorers brought with them when they arrived in far off lands was the thought that they were in some way superior to the natives they came across and that they should have the right to indoctrinate them with their religious beliefs. The assumption the early missionary made was they were dealing with people who had no belief system in a higher power. Christianity was better. End of story. This contamination of societies by missionary movements is what history should detail. It was a serious crime to humanity.
The Muslim religion is another powerful belief system that has been overtaken by fundamentalist leaders who insist on ruling not just the church, but the entire country. And they will not be happy until all lands in which Muslims live are under the control of the Muslim clerics. It’s not too strange that the most powerful ‘free’ country in the world is currently being ruled by such a hierarchy of fundamentalist Christians. It’s scary considering they are at their throats in a punching match. A wise person would find a way out of this mess without blowing up the world. A crazy person would just go on making matters worse.
Are the wise men among us those who decide there is no God and put aside the manmade belief system that rules us?
Wow, I feel stupider for having read that.
This is so telling. Those who believe in a god typically have a limited capacity to understand what atheists think, confined by their own dogged allegiance to their beliefs. In truth, virtually all religious people are also atheists - there are literally hundreds of gods they don’t believe in (and please don’t get into the lame and egocentric idea that all religious people actually believe in your god and just don’t know it).
The difference between theists and atheists is that atheists just believe in one less god than theists.
Only when you understand this point (and I challenge you to try), will you be able to understand how atheists see the world.
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John Says:
August 16th, 2006 at 3:44 pm
I like the articulation of your points and recognize that many of them are valid. However, I’d like to address them individually. Responding here is a poor place to do so. I’ll write my “rebuttal” and let you know where to find it. Thanks for your article. It has helped me to see another side of atheism (not agnosticism) and inspired me to try to find a way(s) for you to accept Christianity as being just as valid if not actually the right way.
John
You’re confusing the Pledge of Allegiance, written by a Baptist minister in 1892, with the Constitution, signed over a 100 years earlier in 1787. Even the words “one nation under god” were added later, in the 20th century.
The men who drafted the Constitution were very careful to keep religion OUT of government. Try reading it sometime to find the “facts” you are quoting. But they also recognized the right to practice religion as an inalienable right, meaning to allow people to believe any way they choose. Are you really unable to understand the difference?
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Jim Says:
August 18th, 2006 at 9:07 pm
I only have one comment. This is not meant to be a mean comment, just a fact. This country was founded on religious beliefs and our laws were written as such. From that moment on, this is a religious country, “One Nation Under God.” We who believe in God will continue to fight for our beliefs to be heard in our country. If you do not like it, then go somewhere else. Then you can spend your tax dollars somewhere else as well. Otherwise, live with it and stop trying to change our way of life.
Please don’t make us laugh! There are many of us all around you, and we don’t spend any effort trying to prove anything. Your mistake is in thinking that because you’re threatened by the idea that we don’t believe in something you hold so fundamental to your world, i.e., a god, that we must be similarly threatened by the idea that you do believe in a god. Trust me, we know what you believe - but you CLEARLY don’t understand us. To an atheist, the chance that there is a god is the same as the chance that purple cows fly over our heads all the time and we just don’t see them. Honestly. We have no need to prove to ourselves or you that those cows don’t exist.
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Fred Says:
August 18th, 2006 at 10:48 pm
Atheist don’t believe in God? Then why do they work so hard to try to prove God doesn’t exist? P-L-E-A-S-E!
JimmyT Says:
August 19th, 2006 at 2:03 am
I agree with you Fred. It obviously worries them terribly.
Or, you know, there’s no evidence to prove God’s existence, and therefore it’s unnecessary to try to prove his non-existence. The burden of proof is not on atheists.
I was replying to “Atheist don’t believe in God? Then why do they work so hard to try to prove God doesn’t exist? P-L-E-A-S-E!”
Ya know. You’re all just contradicting eachother.
One person said about 1/4 down the page “If everyone began to steal”, well.. if everyone stole, it wouldn’t be illegal. Infact, it wouldn’t be a crime. Why? Because everyone did it. Who would be the police then? “God”? How would he punish everyone? Send everyone to “hell”?
As for religion. If all religions would just hold hands for once, maybe we will see what true “power” is within it. Perhaps, a power of “nothing”? How can words spoken from a book (any book) be the word of god? Maybe a practice of religion, but definately not spiritual belief. There’s a difference, spiritual belief and religious belief. The religious belief are the morals globally shared. Then you have the spiritual belief, which is what you belief by choice.
Who are we to say that Christianity is bad? I for one do not have a religion, because, I believe that every religion has “good” factors and “bad” factors. But then, doesn’t that mean that I’m just contradicting myself for posting here? Because I’m judging what’s good and what’s bad, just like everyone else has been.
I do however, want to search for the reasons of existance, but the answer lies within “life”. There is no explanation. How does it work, why does it work? When did it start to work..
Answer me that, and you have yourself a new religion.
forty-two
People, this thread already has too many comments, making it cumbersome for new readers. If you want to comment, or reply to previous comments, please go here: Christian myths about Atheism: discussion. Thanks.
I’m closing off the comments for this post now. Just comment on the other post, if you want to, OK?