The Christian Bible says that “faith can move mountains”.
Me, I believe all the faith in the world can’t move a grain of sand one millimeter.
But, of course, don’t take my word for it. Here’s something to do, if you’re a Christian (but it can work as well if you subscribe to some other creed which says faith has power over the material world):
- Pick a perfectly normal coin.
- Pray to God, fervently, with all your heart, for it to come up as “heads” when you throw it into the air.
- Throw it into the air.
- Write down the result in a piece of paper.
- Repeat 2-4 a large number of times (at least 100, preferably more).
- Calculate the average for “heads” (number or “heads” results divided by number of total throws).
- The average is a number between 0 and 1, so multiply it by 100 to get a nice percentage.
So, tell me… did it go the way you expected? And did you go the way you prayed it to go? Were they the same, by the way? 
I’d bet (assuming a perfectly normal coin, well thrown, a large number of times) that the average is close to 50% - about half heads, half tails. If so, that means it was random - that prayer didn’t change a thing. (If it was 90% “heads” or more, though, and you can reproduce it whenever you want, even using other coins, or having someone else do the throw while you pray, then, why, you’re a million dollars richer…)
What happened (assuming the normal 45%-55% result)? Did God refuse to be tested by our “heathen” “secular” “worldly” science?
”I refuse to prove that I exist,” says God, “for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.”
”But,” say Man, “the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn’t it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don’t. QED.”
”Oh dear,” says God, “I hadn’t though of that” and promply vanishes in a puff of logic.
— Douglas Adams
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I consider myself as a Christian; nevertheless, I agree 100% with you on the “grain of sand statement”. Now take this: You can think of faith as an inner force to achieve you really believes. Of course you have to work for it, faith here stands for the effort you put into your objectives. You really can move the grain of sand or the mountain, just that you have to put your efforts into it, not just sitting and wait for some “God” to do it for you while you “watch TV”.
Now just kidding… for the coin experience, just use a double “head” coin
If “faith stands for the effort” - YOUR effort - then where does God come into this?
Or, to put it in another way, how is there being a god who is either incapable or unwilling to do anything - even moving that grain of sand - different from there being no god at all?
Think of it as follows: You make the “God” when you have strength and objectives and work for it. Think of “God” as a set of principles that you believe and live your life according to them. Did I make myself understood of what “God” interpretation can be? There’s no supernatural here, just a “way” that a set of people share because they want a better world and still believe that we can have a role on it, that it’s not hopeless, and the “God” stands as the reference for the common principles they share.
And I agree 100%: it doesn’t make any difference, either “God” exists or not, what matters is each one of us and the difference we make.
I don’t think most Christians would agree with you - since you’re basically saying that Man created God, and not the other way around.
But, it’s OK - you choose to call your set of principles “God”, while I choose to call mine “my set of principles”.
1. Pick a perfectly normal coin.
2. Beg your dad, fervently, with all your heart, to allow you to flip a coin, let it hand on his outstretched tongue, and for him spit it at a bucket after catching it.
3. Flip the coin, watch what happens.
4. Write down the result in a piece of paper.
5. Repeat 2-4 a large number of times (at least 100, preferably more).
6. Calculate the average for “bucket spits” (number of “bucket spits” results divided by number of total throws).
7. The average is a number between 0 and 1, so multiply it by 100 to get a nice percentage.
So, tell me… does this prove your dad does not exist because he failed to participate in a silly test? Or does it prove that your will to influence events is superior to his?
Regards,
Rich.
The problem is that God, if he exists, refuses to take part in any test - “silly” or not. It’s like I said before: He hides from Man’s every way of seeing him, then supposedly condemns to eternal suffering anyone who doesn’t believe He exists anyway. In other words, Man is supposed to turn off all kinds of rational thought so that he can be saved. One would thing God wanted animals instead, but made a mistake and now, instead of admitting His mistake and letting us go free, he “says” he wants us to be as animal-like (that is, driven by instinct instead of reason) as possible.
Or maybe it’s just that Man invented God to explain what Man didn’t understand at the time, and it stuck. But maybe it’s just me.
There’s something curious about me and religion: I’m an agnostic, yet I often find myself defendind religions.
Sure, the Catholic Church is responsible for massive bloodshed over the centuries; sure, Muhammad unknowingly created a scapegoat for some groups of people’s mental disturbances when he worte the Qu’ran.
But, like everything about our lives, we have no right to impose any opinion on anyone. Except for standing national laws, of course, but that should go without saying.
I believe in the soul because I like the concept. I also believe in Heaven and Hell, Angels and Demons (in the more fierce senses: covertly attempting to shift the balance to one side) and the eternal bliss and ever-lasting suffering induced by these two instances. Reincarnation is also a nice idea.
Is it wrong for me to believe in these things? To feel them to be true, to somehow distract myself from constantly asking “What does it all mean?”, “When did it all begin?”, “Where’s Waldo?”, etc.?
Using faith as an excuse to do something (kill, rape, threaten or any other negative action) is wrong, sure. But if you like to be helped by someone while doing something, than, theoretically, who would be better than the one who conceived such an activity?
Even if (s)he/they doesn’t/don’t exist, doesn’t thinking/feeling/believing they do help that person work more efficiently?
Hell, we take medicine to relieve us of our pains, we take steroids to get a buffer body and a lot of people “dope” (don’t know the word for chemicals that give someone more energy than they really have) themselves to work better!! Faith is cleaner, purer (some defile it), stronger and more powerful than the previous… if it is TRUE, HONEST faith. If someone really believes entity X is at his/her side helping them do whatever it is they’re doing, it is my belief he/she will work that much better, that much faster and will be that much more satisfied that he fulfilled his purpose (the task he carried out).
Anime/Manga Example: The way Goku helped Gohan beat Cell, in Dragon Ball Z.
When you encourage someone to do something (here’s hoping it’s not something wrong, eh? ;)), if “the right buttons are pushed”, that person will work better because (s)he feels supported, encouraged, more powerful! Gods and the like can say that one word, give that final push, lifting the person’s heart/soul/mood to the height it needs to carry on his duties!
And I’m an Agnostic, eh?
I’m not saying Gods are like Aladino’s Magic Lamp: ask a wish, it comes true. Faith is said to give people wings, but the flying is till up to them
Should faith interfer with your judgment? Depends on the occasion. Barring scientific research is something the “faithful” do a lot, because it is “immoral” or “unethical”. True: cloning is a bizarre concept (would you like to run into yourself in the street? [physically, not spiritually]), and discussion on “when does life actually begin?” is as active as it ever was, but as long as it is always closely watched, nothing will go (terribly wrong).
I’m not saying “Hey, God will tell us what to do! Let’s go to church now and get some, beg your pardon, M4D SK1LLZ!!1″, I’m saying something more like “If your faith helps you work, then, by all means, believe on!”.
The main guideline to this whole religion fuss should be “as long as nobobdy gets hurt”.
Long comment, I know. It’s just a fascinating subject.
QUOTE The main guideline to this whole religion fuss should be “as long as nobobdy gets hurt”. END QUOTE
ay, there’s the rub.
millions upon millions of people, in the billions perhaps since the dawn of the abrahamic religions, have been hurt, tortured, murdered, wiped out or have committed suicide in the name of religion. in the name of Faith. just look at the current state of events.
College educated, functional MUSLIM men decide to blow themselves up and kill innocents in the name of their faith.
Christians have assimilated to living between “faith and reality”, meanwhile forgeting their grisly, horrific past of secret societies, torture and genocide. Any history textbook would gladly glimpse over the Inquisition for example.
The Jewish people in the middle east today have been living in a state of constant warfare since the founding of Israel in the 1950’s. Why? because they refuse to give up their Faith and would rather die than say they believe in a MYTH:the power of YHWH, the tetragammatron.
Why does the US support Israel? Not for the wellbeing of the jewish people, i can tell you that. American Christians have supported israel in the hopes that peace will be restored by Force, the sacred temple will be built once more, apocolyptic war will begin, and JESUS will usher in a new world, free of unbelievers like the Jews and the Muslims.
don’t believe me? you don’t have too! brush up on your history and look up Great Britain’s Balfour Declaration of 1917 or how president reagan allowed JERRY FALWELL(crazy evangelist) and HAL LINDSEY (a crazy in on himself) to national security briefings and talks about nuclear war with russia to top pentagon strategists.
the fact that Faith is bringing us closer to armageddon than the mere prophecy itself is one indicator that we should just stop believing altogether and just start thinking more critically. The future of mankind should not lie in the makebelieve stories of 2000 year old books.
“Pick a perfectly normal coin.
Pray to God, fervently, with all your heart, for it to come up as “heads” when you throw it into the air.
Throw it into the air.
Write down the result in a piece of paper.
Repeat 2-4 a large number of times (at least 100, preferably more).
Calculate the average for “heads” (number or “heads” results divided by number of total throws).
The average is a number between 0 and 1, so multiply it by 100 to get a nice percentage.
So, tell me… did it go the way you expected? And did you go the way you prayed it to go? Were they the same, by the way?”
I have a slight problem with this statement. First of all I am a christian and christians as far as I know use prayer as a guide in life for problems they encounter along the way. Not for inanimate simply material objects with no actual spiritual influence. Prayer is meant to be used as a guide when someone is in need of help and not meant to defy any material laws.
All of this.
I think, as long as people think that thier religion gives them the right to judge others, is a hypocryte.
As far as I know, for any Christians out there, Jesus words were, AND I QUOTE “Let he who hath not sinned cast the first stone.”
ANY person, of ANY faith, religious, atheist, can take a good lesson from these few words. Yet even those who call themselves Christians, throw stones at those who dont.
As far as the power of prayer goes. PERSONALLY, it’s WILLPOWER.
Maybe I’m a “Weak” person, but I find that when I pray for forgiveness of my wrongs… even if I didn’t do anything TO hurt someone, but even if I neglected my spouse, or myself… I feel better. When I’m trying to conquer a personal “demon”, I find prayer actually helpful.
I’ve meditated too, GREAT, but not the same as prayer.
I’ve read studies when it comes to the actual PHYSICAL effects of prayer on the sick, and read completely opposite cases. So that’s all up in the air… I think BOTH studies were bias.
Even so, a placebo can show that the belief in SOMETHING can have physical effects on the body. Therein lies the rubb. Where does the mind stop? If the mind is so effective, does it really not reach out to something bigger?
kren, i really like your last point, interesting…
God is not hiding from us. We’re just arrogant enough to believe that our way of seeing is the only way to see. We take our deficiencies and cast them upon the creator, so He is petty and judgemental and vindictive. God is none of these, we are. God is love and our purpose here is to learn how to love and how to be loved and how to begin to create, like our creator. Everything else is busywork.
The power of prayer, for me, has it’s power in the fact that I am reaching out to my creator. In the seeking, I have found. I wish you could experience what I feel when I’m connected to God. I’m not smart enough to fool myself with illusions. Reality starts with God and goes out from there.
I wonder sometimes if athiests are really just folk that are angry with God. Why else would someone put so much effort into nothingness. The intelligent minority.
How can someone be angry with something they’re pretty sure doesn’t exist?
Do you not believe in dragons because you’re “angry” with them?