Comments on: Conversations with “mystics” http://www.wayofthemind.org/2005/08/30/conversations-with-mystics/ Tue, 06 Jan 2009 06:48:10 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7 hourly 1 By: viagra side effects http://www.wayofthemind.org/2005/08/30/conversations-with-mystics/comment-page-1/#comment-12437 viagra side effects Mon, 19 Mar 2007 00:36:21 +0000 http://www.wayofthemind.org/?p=43#comment-12437 <strong>viagra side effects...</strong> news... viagra side effects…

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]]> By: Geoff http://www.wayofthemind.org/2005/08/30/conversations-with-mystics/comment-page-1/#comment-397 Geoff Sat, 25 Mar 2006 15:01:03 +0000 http://www.wayofthemind.org/?p=43#comment-397 Since you compared it to the existence of God. If you try to convince someone that you love them, and they are skeptical of your claim, they could quite sensibly demand that you demonstrate your love for them. Your mother has (unless you are really unfortunate) been demonstrating her love for you all your life. Science never proves anything, but does provide "proof" for its claims in its process of testing hypotheses by experiment and observation. If I observe your mother giving you a hug every day for the next month, I might reasonably conclude that she loves you, based on this observation. If I observe it happening for a period of ten years, in combination with a lot of other evidence like perhaps she does your washing for you or bakes you cakes ;), then this would make taking the position that she loves you all the more easy to defend. I am nowhere near as confident that a demand for proof of God's existence would be as easy to satisfy as this. Since you compared it to the existence of God. If you try to convince someone that you love them, and they are skeptical of your claim, they could quite sensibly demand that you demonstrate your love for them. Your mother has (unless you are really unfortunate) been demonstrating her love for you all your life. Science never proves anything, but does provide “proof” for its claims in its process of testing hypotheses by experiment and observation. If I observe your mother giving you a hug every day for the next month, I might reasonably conclude that she loves you, based on this observation. If I observe it happening for a period of ten years, in combination with a lot of other evidence like perhaps she does your washing for you or bakes you cakes ;), then this would make taking the position that she loves you all the more easy to defend. I am nowhere near as confident that a demand for proof of God’s existence would be as easy to satisfy as this.

]]> By: Hugo http://www.wayofthemind.org/2005/08/30/conversations-with-mystics/comment-page-1/#comment-392 Hugo Mon, 20 Mar 2006 17:44:29 +0000 http://www.wayofthemind.org/?p=43#comment-392 I love you; also, I have a dog at home. You do believe me, of course, as I have no reason to lie, deceive or fool you into thinking I love you and have a dog at home. If I say, "I have found God", you say, prove it to me, I don't believe you, you're not telling the truth, it's all in your head. I cannot prove to you, scientifically, "I love you", or "I found God", but I can prove to you scientifically if I have a dog and/or a dragon at home (not really science, you just come over and look around). You cannot prove, scientifically, my mother's love for me and, I don't need it proven to *know* her love for me. And, since when has love stopped being something extraordinary? I love you; also, I have a dog at home.
You do believe me, of course, as I have no reason to lie, deceive or fool you into thinking I love you and have a dog at home.

If I say, “I have found God”, you say, prove it to me, I don’t believe you, you’re not telling the truth, it’s all in your head.

I cannot prove to you, scientifically, “I love you”, or “I found God”, but I can prove to you scientifically if I have a dog and/or a dragon at home (not really science, you just come over and look around).

You cannot prove, scientifically, my mother’s love for me and, I don’t need it proven to *know* her love for me.

And, since when has love stopped being something extraordinary?

]]> By: Pedro Timóteo http://www.wayofthemind.org/2005/08/30/conversations-with-mystics/comment-page-1/#comment-387 Pedro Timóteo Mon, 06 Mar 2006 16:21:00 +0000 http://www.wayofthemind.org/?p=43#comment-387 Someone loving someone else isn't an "extraordinary claim". If you say you have a dog at home, I'll believe you without seeing it, because it's a perfectly ordinary situation, I have no reason to doubt you, and you have, as far as I know, no reason to lie to me. If, instead, you say you have a <i>dragon</i> at home, I won't believe you without proof. The existence of a god (or any supernatural being) is, to me, as extraordinary as someone having a dragon at home, so... Someone loving someone else isn’t an “extraordinary claim”.

If you say you have a dog at home, I’ll believe you without seeing it, because it’s a perfectly ordinary situation, I have no reason to doubt you, and you have, as far as I know, no reason to lie to me.

If, instead, you say you have a dragon at home, I won’t believe you without proof.

The existence of a god (or any supernatural being) is, to me, as extraordinary as someone having a dragon at home, so…

]]> By: Hugo http://www.wayofthemind.org/2005/08/30/conversations-with-mystics/comment-page-1/#comment-386 Hugo Mon, 06 Mar 2006 14:57:21 +0000 http://www.wayofthemind.org/?p=43#comment-386 "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" Do you claim to love your mother/father, or your wife, or your children? PROVE IT. And no, of course I don't believe your claims... I don't know you and, for all I know, you can be a liar. Science, still, isn't the new God. “extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof”

Do you claim to love your mother/father, or your wife, or your children?

PROVE IT. And no, of course I don’t believe your claims… I don’t know you and, for all I know, you can be a liar.

Science, still, isn’t the new God.

]]> By: Mike http://www.wayofthemind.org/2005/08/30/conversations-with-mystics/comment-page-1/#comment-195 Mike Mon, 24 Oct 2005 05:08:05 +0000 http://www.wayofthemind.org/?p=43#comment-195 What you are describing is not mysticism. Mysticism is a group of spiritual beliefs and religions (including Kaballah, Sufism, Taoism, Zen Buddhism and certain kinds of Christian thought) which claim that one can experience a oneness and unity with God or the universe, but this is not understood to be a deity. Since it is believed that you can't describe the nature of "God", any type of characterization (theistic or atheistic) could be a potentially useful but incomplete and ultimately contradictory metaphor. Additionally, mysticism doesn't usually make any claims of supernatural ocurrences, since for the mystic, dividing the world into natural and supernatural is dualistic characterization that denies the true nature of the world, which is the unity of all things. All things and events are "supernatural", so there's no need to explain them with strange occult forces. The mystic's goal is to awaken to the true reality underlying all of reality, not to pursue unseen forces that supposedly magical forces that only exist in special circumstances. What you are describing is not mysticism. Mysticism is a group of spiritual beliefs and religions (including Kaballah, Sufism, Taoism, Zen Buddhism and certain kinds of Christian thought) which claim that one can experience a oneness and unity with God or the universe, but this is not understood to be a deity. Since it is believed that you can’t describe the nature of “God”, any type of characterization (theistic or atheistic) could be a potentially useful but incomplete and ultimately contradictory metaphor. Additionally, mysticism doesn’t usually make any claims of supernatural ocurrences, since for the mystic, dividing the world into natural and supernatural is dualistic characterization that denies the true nature of the world, which is the unity of all things. All things and events are “supernatural”, so there’s no need to explain them with strange occult forces. The mystic’s goal is to awaken to the true reality underlying all of reality, not to pursue unseen forces that supposedly magical forces that only exist in special circumstances.

]]> By: Kanzentai http://www.wayofthemind.org/2005/08/30/conversations-with-mystics/comment-page-1/#comment-118 Kanzentai Thu, 08 Sep 2005 05:56:42 +0000 http://www.wayofthemind.org/?p=43#comment-118 I think we're dealing with Santa Claus here. It's a "childish" belief "imposed" on children, I know. But what's wrong with it? You're saying that, at a certain time of year, a fat elderly mand dressed in red&white will come along on his flying sleigh, pulled by flying reindeers and give out presents to all the little boys and girls that behaved nicely all year-long. Is this not a pretty tale? Doesn't it reward virtue? Isn't it an exceptionally effective (for some time) psychological technique wielded by parents? I think we should only embark on an argument if the "believer" is "assaulting" us with this beliefs. Otherwise, it's convertion! You can healthily discuss it, but saying it's wrong is like telling a pig he's a dirty animal (strong example, I know). Don't we all like a little magic? A little sparkle in the air? If your asked if you prefer a nice soothing colour photo (supposing you're not in a foul mood) or that photo in black&white, I think most would choose the coloured one. Because it's lively, it breathes life! Why shouldn't we have magic in our lives, be it real or not? If you're a painter, doesn't suddenly realizing that landscape MUST be put into a portrait give you a sense of power, of doing something otherwordly? If you're an engineer, won't sudden insight on what that one component should be doing and isn't put a smile on your face? That's magic at work! It drives you, it makes you feel alive! If someone wants to call it Magic, God, Coca-Cola, Music, Blue shoes, the letter Phi or striped wool one-sleaved shirts, it's their problem. As long as they don't impose their word on others! To end my comment (it's almost 7 AM, and I have to be at the British Council at 2:30 PM), I believe you need magic (call it what you will) in your life to really live! If your blood doesn't feel like it's pumping anymore, struggle for it to feel so, damn it! :) Just don't die alive, eh? ;) I think we’re dealing with Santa Claus here.

It’s a “childish” belief “imposed” on children, I know. But what’s wrong with it?
You’re saying that, at a certain time of year, a fat elderly mand dressed in red&white will come along on his flying sleigh, pulled by flying reindeers and give out presents to all the little boys and girls that behaved nicely all year-long.

Is this not a pretty tale? Doesn’t it reward virtue? Isn’t it an exceptionally effective (for some time) psychological technique wielded by parents?

I think we should only embark on an argument if the “believer” is “assaulting” us with this beliefs. Otherwise, it’s convertion! You can healthily discuss it, but saying it’s wrong is like telling a pig he’s a dirty animal (strong example, I know).

Don’t we all like a little magic? A little sparkle in the air?
If your asked if you prefer a nice soothing colour photo (supposing you’re not in a foul mood) or that photo in black&white, I think most would choose the coloured one. Because it’s lively, it breathes life! Why shouldn’t we have magic in our lives, be it real or not?

If you’re a painter, doesn’t suddenly realizing that landscape MUST be put into a portrait give you a sense of power, of doing something otherwordly?
If you’re an engineer, won’t sudden insight on what that one component should be doing and isn’t put a smile on your face?

That’s magic at work! It drives you, it makes you feel alive!

If someone wants to call it Magic, God, Coca-Cola, Music, Blue shoes, the letter Phi or striped wool one-sleaved shirts, it’s their problem. As long as they don’t impose their word on others!

To end my comment (it’s almost 7 AM, and I have to be at the British Council at 2:30 PM), I believe you need magic (call it what you will) in your life to really live! If your blood doesn’t feel like it’s pumping anymore, struggle for it to feel so, damn it! :)

Just don’t die alive, eh? ;)

]]> By: Dehumanizer http://www.wayofthemind.org/2005/08/30/conversations-with-mystics/comment-page-1/#comment-101 Dehumanizer Wed, 31 Aug 2005 07:00:41 +0000 http://www.wayofthemind.org/?p=43#comment-101 William: thanks for the comment. And yes, I believe that everyone should have the freedom to explore reality and existence as they see fit. Just like I hate the idea of a theocracy, I'd hate to live in a society that forced MY beliefs on people. velvetsatine: one more thing (I'm a sadist :)): you said <i>"How can you be so sure that science explains it all? Do you really believe that your reality is more real than others just because it can be proved by science?"</i> My answer is the same I gave here some time ago: science isn't perfect, but it's, IMO, the best thing we've got. And it's the only thing whose explanations are consistent with reality. You may believe, for instance, that "belief shapes reality". But what do you believe when it doesn't happen that way? You close your eyes. Science would discard that theory - it's a nice one, but the results of testing show it to be flawed. William: thanks for the comment. And yes, I believe that everyone should have the freedom to explore reality and existence as they see fit. Just like I hate the idea of a theocracy, I’d hate to live in a society that forced MY beliefs on people.

velvetsatine: one more thing (I’m a sadist :)): you said “How can you be so sure that science explains it all? Do you really believe that your reality is more real than others just because it can be proved by science?”

My answer is the same I gave here some time ago: science isn’t perfect, but it’s, IMO, the best thing we’ve got. And it’s the only thing whose explanations are consistent with reality. You may believe, for instance, that “belief shapes reality”. But what do you believe when it doesn’t happen that way? You close your eyes. Science would discard that theory - it’s a nice one, but the results of testing show it to be flawed.

]]> By: William Robbins http://www.wayofthemind.org/2005/08/30/conversations-with-mystics/comment-page-1/#comment-100 William Robbins Wed, 31 Aug 2005 01:24:34 +0000 http://www.wayofthemind.org/?p=43#comment-100 I think you make some very valid points. Even though I do have strong spiritual beliefs for myself, I never claim that makes me more fulfilled. The spiritual realm or any type of mystical belief is generally associated with some kind of experience and too many times people fail to appreciate that they can't expect someone not having that experience to have the same feeling. It is just too bad that they can't give others the freedom to explore life as it fits their needs. That is to me the true merit of respect others rights, which seems to get lost when people are in an obsessive state to preach at the world. I think you make some very valid points. Even though I do have strong spiritual beliefs for myself, I never claim that makes me more fulfilled. The spiritual realm or any type of mystical belief is generally associated with some kind of experience and too many times people fail to appreciate that they can’t expect someone not having that experience to have the same feeling.

It is just too bad that they can’t give others the freedom to explore life as it fits their needs. That is to me the true merit of respect others rights, which seems to get lost when people are in an obsessive state to preach at the world.

]]> By: Dehumanizer http://www.wayofthemind.org/2005/08/30/conversations-with-mystics/comment-page-1/#comment-99 Dehumanizer Tue, 30 Aug 2005 15:18:40 +0000 http://www.wayofthemind.org/?p=43#comment-99 Do you need the dictionary definition? :) You know the answer to that. And you also know that I don't believe that "we make our own reality" or that "there are many realities" or that "everything you see may be just figments of your imagination". Do you need the dictionary definition? :) You know the answer to that. And you also know that I don’t believe that “we make our own reality” or that “there are many realities” or that “everything you see may be just figments of your imagination”.

]]> By: velvetsatine http://www.wayofthemind.org/2005/08/30/conversations-with-mystics/comment-page-1/#comment-98 velvetsatine Tue, 30 Aug 2005 14:56:03 +0000 http://www.wayofthemind.org/?p=43#comment-98 I think we use imagination in quite different ways. You for instance don't paint and don't make any collages, do you? Or do we use our imagination only when we read and see fantasy and science fiction? If so then I think you're restricting the concept of imagination quite a lot. ;) You haven't answered to my question: what is then reality? I think we use imagination in quite different ways. You for instance don’t paint and don’t make any collages, do you? Or do we use our imagination only when we read and see fantasy and science fiction? If so then I think you’re restricting the concept of imagination quite a lot. ;)

You haven’t answered to my question: what is then reality?

]]> By: Dehumanizer http://www.wayofthemind.org/2005/08/30/conversations-with-mystics/comment-page-1/#comment-97 Dehumanizer Tue, 30 Aug 2005 14:47:28 +0000 http://www.wayofthemind.org/?p=43#comment-97 People may certainly believe as absurd a thing (or things) as they want to. But if they want to convince me with mysticism, they'd better be ready for a dose of reality. What is reality? Believe me, I love to use my imagination more than you probably do <small>(I love fantasy, science fiction and horror, while your favorite movies and books are about the "real world" and "real people", from what I read in your blog)</small>, but I don't believe we live in a "Matrix", or that this universe is like the one in Planescape: Torment, where belief shapes reality. Those are wonderful stories, but reality is real - and it's real <i>whether we like it or not</i>, which is certainly quite scary to a lot of people - including, but not restricted to, every mystic. People may certainly believe as absurd a thing (or things) as they want to. But if they want to convince me with mysticism, they’d better be ready for a dose of reality.

What is reality? Believe me, I love to use my imagination more than you probably do (I love fantasy, science fiction and horror, while your favorite movies and books are about the “real world” and “real people”, from what I read in your blog), but I don’t believe we live in a “Matrix”, or that this universe is like the one in Planescape: Torment, where belief shapes reality. Those are wonderful stories, but reality is real - and it’s real whether we like it or not, which is certainly quite scary to a lot of people - including, but not restricted to, every mystic.

]]> By: velvetsatine http://www.wayofthemind.org/2005/08/30/conversations-with-mystics/comment-page-1/#comment-96 velvetsatine Tue, 30 Aug 2005 13:39:17 +0000 http://www.wayofthemind.org/?p=43#comment-96 What is reality then? How can you be so sure that science explains it all? Do you really believe that your reality is more real than others just because it can be proved by science? Are you sure you're alive and not dead? I'm not a mystic myself but I let others believe whatever they want to even if it's the most absurd thing in the world. If people for example believe they talk to dead people just let them. Who cares? As long I'm not the one talking to dead people that's fine with me. :-D What is reality then? How can you be so sure that science explains it all? Do you really believe that your reality is more real than others just because it can be proved by science? Are you sure you’re alive and not dead?

I’m not a mystic myself but I let others believe whatever they want to even if it’s the most absurd thing in the world. If people for example believe they talk to dead people just let them. Who cares? As long I’m not the one talking to dead people that’s fine with me. :-D

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